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Post by Fins on Jul 6, 2010 19:31:36 GMT -5
BNG, first off... excellent review and you are right on in all spots. You really could be a movie reviewer professionally... from a 'guy's' perspective . I saw Eclipse at a Regal Cinema and they did indeed show the DH trailer. It was identical to the one they released last week. I realized at the beginning of the trailer that Voldy does the Avada Kadavra curse on Harry. NOW WHY WOULD THE SHOW THAT??? This moment is the culmination of the entire series. I don't understand this. It should be a moment that we've never seen before when watching the movie. It should be a moment tense with emotion (yes, I know its in the book). I wish I hadn't seen that part. I don't think I'm going to watch anymore trailers.
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Post by amandajg on Jul 8, 2010 23:53:59 GMT -5
Bng....! You just explained something I have been trying to figure out for a long time. Basically, I wanted to know why the hell I like Jacob so much better than Edward when with most fans it's the reverse. You answered it. Off to ponder this.
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Post by amandajg on Jul 8, 2010 23:56:29 GMT -5
P.S. read the books so you can help me work out some other questions I have. That's not too much to ask, is it?
As incentive, I'll trade you an American nickel for the Canadian one you have if you do. If settling your issues with karma and such isn't major incentive, I don't know what is.
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Post by * amanda on Jul 9, 2010 0:53:45 GMT -5
Bng, you brought up some very very very interesting (at least to me!) points about the series.
To quickly get one of your questions out of the way, I have to say the Volturi are the most underdeveloped storyline/set of characters in the series. It's interesting to me that you felt their storyline was resolved in the Eclipse movie (perhaps in case they were only going to make 3 movies?) because it flares up again in Breaking Dawn. But don't get your expectations up too high. If Meyer wrote a sequel to the series, this is the storyline she'd have to revisit so that she could tie it up once and for all.
Meanwhile I wonder if you'd change your mind about Jacob had you read New Moon and Eclipse. He is fiery, more impulsive, and at times less endearing in the books than he is in the movies. I think this is a result of the filmmakers trying too hard to push him into the leading role in New Moon to make up for the limited screen time that the heartthrob (Edward) had in that movie. By the time Eclipse rolled around, he was still an audience favorite and they sheltered him from the bit of grittiness that his book alter ego had. With that said, he was still my favourite character in the books.
What has always irked me is that Edward and Bella are presented as the couple that was meant to be together from the very beginning. There's really no choice, no alternative, we know where the series is headed and we know that Bella is destined for Edward. Jacob crops up as a critical character in New Moon and he plays an important role: to ensure that Bella is committed to Edward and Edward only before she commits to him eternally and that Edward is worth giving up her human life for. He's a fantastic foil character. The theme of fire and ice runs throughout the books (as well as was included in the movies); both elements are destructive and yet necessary in this world, but are opposites of one another. Jacob's fiery, passionate, impulsive, lively nature is in contrast to Edward's measured, calm, patient personality. Whether you are attracted to Edward or Jacob as a character is a matter of personal taste. However as you said - and this was my epiphany for the night - all throughout the series I expected something to crop up that would make Jacob flawed, make it clear that Bella NEEDED to marry Edward, and yet nothing ever did. Nothing about him gave us a compelling reason to NOT want Bella to end up with him, other than the idea that was set up for us from the beginning from the omnipresent author that Bella belonged with Edward.
In fact, in the books (and this is reflected in the movies to an extent), Meyer was so comfortable in setting Bella as simply destined to be with Edward from the beginning that she neglected to develop their relationship as fully as Bella's relationship with Jacob. It's as if the Bella/Jacob relationship ran out of control...as if, somewhere in the middle, Meyer enjoyed writing (or at least spent so much energy on) all of the ups and downs of their relationship so much that she almost wanted Bella to end up with Jacob, but as she had already made her mind up prior, so she wrapped it up with Bella choosing Edward anyways.
We "know" from the author that Bella and Edward love each other - love at first sight, passion, intrigue, insatiable desire, etc - but at no time do we ever see a great evolution in their relationship or a compelling reason other than that simple set-up, their "destiny" together. Meanwhile, if you are someone who looks for more balance and justification for your relationships than "just" love, Edward isn't going to make a more discriminating cut.
So, throughout the series, as we experience the evolution from friendship to love between Bella and Jacob, someone could be thrown off course. In many ways, Bella and Jacob's relationship represents ideal, realistic love? I mean, not only do they both love each other but they are great friends and share so many interests and consistently face (and overcome) so much emotion and passion and turbulence together. Their relationship is so lively and human. And mature. And real.
Bella's relationship with Edward, in contrast, seems static and can only go so far until she has to turn into a vampire for it to be more. Maybe it's because we're all humans but I think that we can relate far better to Bella and Jacob's relationship. That could be a part of an allure of the Bella and Edward duo, however; their relationship is so extraordinary in every way. It's breathtaking, it's fascinating, it's kind of "out of this world." Don't we all dream of having a relationship that escapes the constraints of our mortal world? Hasn't mythology always tried to set up gods with mere mortals? It's a theme that has intrigued us for centuries.
But where the whole god-with-mortal throws me off in Twilight is, not only does it ultimately not appeal to me because I can't imagine living my life with someone who is not human, but because classically we never find a god falling in love with a human without severe consequences. Hubris and all that. It somehow seems dangerous...too dangerous, to base the rest of your life on... for Bella to choose Edward.
And you BnG pointed to some more modern references that contrast to the way in which this love triangle was set up. Movies and stories where we have experienced love triangles, and after some development there is always something that ensures we, the audience, want the protagonist to end up with the "right" man. At no point ...uh, before.... before Bella gets married to Edward do we see that flaw with Jacob in order to know, to be satisfied, that she is making the right choice, other than the fact that it had been set up for us from the beginning.
Finally, as a matter of personal taste, I can't imagine myself truly falling in love with Edward. To me, he's a "love at first sight" kind of guy. The person you fall for irrationally, impulsively, And you try so hard and so long to make your soul mate, because that's who you think he is. Until you try too hard. And then (assuming you are still a human at this point) one day you wake up, you realized you've matured, and so you break up with that person because somehow you can't be with him, it's too difficult, it's too much, it compromises who you are, etc.
Then you find someone who you can be friends with - or maybe were friends with - who you eventually fall for, and who you realize is far better for you than the first guy you fell head over heels with. You may never get over that first one but know that the 2nd one was far better for you. And the two of you live happily ever after.
Maybe part of the appeal of the series is that it gives everyone a (2nd?) chance at that crazy/passionate/impossible love. A chance where, in the end, it works out. It's fun, as a reader, to experience something different, wild, and not always realistic. But ultimately, if this were a real story with real characters, I'd be telling Bella to run like crazy from Edward and pick Jacob, because it seems to me that their relationship would work in the long run.
Besides. I think usually the first guy has a problem having sex with you. It's the second guy who doesn't. Points for Team Jacob on that one. What can I say... let's face it, that is important in a relationship. I would raise some major alarm bells if I'd been snubbed the way Bella was in Eclipse...
So anyways, that is my defense of the cultural phenomenon known as "Team Jacob" and how you helped me realize why I could never fully get around to being on the Team Edward boat. It's the author. It's the triangle. It's not done right. Or is it? It is different. And you have to give it props for being original.
Now, I just need you to read the series, bng, if for nothing else to give us your take on Breaking Dawn. And by the way, please don't read that without having read New Moon or Eclipse, as the movies do leave some details out that I think would affect a Breaking Dawn reading experience.
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Post by blackngold on Jul 9, 2010 8:01:10 GMT -5
I understand that the Volturi (personally, i prefer Vulturi since they remind me of vultures) play a much larger role in the books. I'm just saying in terms of what was presented in the movie, if you removed them from the movie, added a wedding scene, cue up the scene where Edward turns Bella, fade to black with the tag line "and they lived happily ever after". Wouldn't that story feel complete?
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Post by amandajg on Jul 9, 2010 23:33:35 GMT -5
Yes.
And also, upon further consideration your assessment of the love triangle actually pretty well sums up the entire series.
It's audacious and breaks with tradition.
Therein lies the appeal...and controversy.
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Post by blackngold on Jul 12, 2010 7:02:08 GMT -5
I did think of one other movie that has a Twilight type love triangle - Sweet Home Alabama. From the Yahoo plot synopsis:
New York fashion designer Melanie Carmichael suddenly finds herself engaged to the city's most eligible bachelor. But Melanie's past holds many secrets, including Jake, the redneck husband she married in high school, who refuses to divorce her. Bound and determined to end their contentious relationship once and for all, Melanie sneaks back home to Alabama to confront her past, only to discover that you can take the girl out of the South, but you can never take the South out of the girl.
So, the reason Melanie leaves her husband Jake was that he was a redneck with no ambition. She is engaged to Andrew, a rising NYC politician. The reason I bring this movie up is to illustrate the problem of the unresolved love triangle. There is a scene where Melanie needs something from her apartment. She asks her assistant to get it and has Andrew meet the assistant there so that he can bring whatever it was to Alabama. I don't remember why, but when Andrew gets there the assistant is wearing nothing but a bra and panties. She then proceeds to flirt with Andrew. So you're thinking - AHA, this is where HIS TRUE BASE NATURE gets revealed. But no, he just collects whatever he came to get and leaves.
So, the scene is very odd and out of place in a rom-com. I later saw something where the director explains this scene. Of course, the whole point of the movie is to get Melanie back with Jake, who is shown to have HIDDEN DEPTHS. But what to do with Andrew (played by Patrick Dempsey). They didn't want to leave him broken hearted. The apartment scene was to supposed to show that love was waiting in the wings for him. Originally, they were going to have him give in to the temptation, but then they realized that they didn't want to make out to be the bad guy.
In the end, I think this illustrates the inherent problem (not the right word but can't think of anything better) with this type of love triangle resolution. How do you get everyone involved to come out smelling like roses? I think that it definitely a more nuanced look at love triangles and much closer to real life.
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Post by blackngold on Jul 12, 2010 9:10:23 GMT -5
Maybe Bella should have read this book before she made her choice.
How Not To Marry the Wrong Guy: A Guide For Avoiding the Biggest Mistake of Your Life by Anne Milford and Jennifer Gauvin.
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Post by blackngold on Jul 14, 2010 7:18:26 GMT -5
This from a local Pittsburgh blog that I read:
In which I witness the madness
My 13-year-old niece from Mexico City is living with me for the next seven weeks for her “American Holiday.”
Aside: I can’t say the word “holiday” without immediately thinking of that one chicken in Chicken Run who, each time a fellow chicken would be heading for a beheading, would say in an English accent, “Is he going on a holiday?” Hee.
And we’re back.
So, last night she arrived into Pittsburgh from Mexico City and when we finally got her to our home and all unpacked, we sat down with her in the living room to chat. Our chats mean that I tell my husband what to say and he repeats it to her in Spanish because my Spanish is of the EL SUCKO dialect.
Anyway, this happened last night:
Me: Does she like all that Twilight madness?
Hubby: —- ———- — ——- Twilight?
Niece: Si.
Me: Tell her Taylor Lautner is in town filming.
Hubby: —- —- ——- ——- Twilight — ——— —– —– Taylor Lautner?
Niece: Que? Quien?
Me: The wolf. With the abs.
Hubby: ——— —- —— ———– lobo —- —– ————- — —- abs ——–?
Niece: Oh, si.
Hubby: ———- ——— ————– —- movie …
Niece: SI?!!?!
Hubby: —– —— ———— aqui en PEETSBORG. (I love the way Spanish-speaking people say Pittsburgh when they’re speaking Spanish.)
Niece: [blink] [blink] SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
She literally covered her mouth for a full three minutes while her eyes were as big as giant eyeball things.
Anyway, if you spot me driving real slowly through Mt. Lebanon at 4:30 in the morning with an adorable Mexican girl in the passenger seat cranking the Stalk-o-Meter to ANNIHILATE, you’ll know why.
Because SQUEEEEEE is a universal language.
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Post by blackngold on Jul 26, 2010 10:07:41 GMT -5
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