Dumbledore's Man or Dumbledore's Scam?

[* amanda]

OK, here we go. We've discussed Snape (although, by all means, please continue.) Now it's time for the Dumbledore thread.

So what do you think... master wizard or master manipulator? Are you still Dumbledore's man or are you disgusted at his scam? Do you think he was a crummy guy, or a man with good intentions, or a man with good intentions and bad judgement?

Did Ariana change your opinion about him? Grindewald? Aberforth? How he treated Harry? Are you glad he's a flawed character or would you liked him to have remained a bit of a mystery, a bit of a saint?

Go!

[Richard]

Great thread!!!!!

Still Dumbledore's man, even more now that we know that he is flawed. It makes him so much more human and I especially like him saying he refused the Ministry post because he couldn't handle power. I always assumed he did so due to his love for his job as headmaster. Anyway, his knowledge and acceptance of his own weaknesses makes him more great in my opinion.

Regarding his friendship with Grindelwald, as we know, he came through eventually. I can imagine DD being rather pissed with Muggles after what happened to his sister (some people theorise she was actually molested / raped). People do weird things when they are emotional, and if we know one thing, DD was rather emotional from time to time, even though he was able to remain calm in his later life.

And his great plan worked. It is due to his plan that Harry defeated Voldemort. Sure, Snape died, but that wasn't planned by Dumbledore. I think DD intended Snape to survive as well. By giving Harry all the clues he needed, he succeeded in getting Harry through it all alive. Harry wouldn't have done so if it hadn't been for Dumbledore.

In short, I'm glad he was a flawed character, and that he had a certain amount of skeletons in the closet. It makes him more human, more real, and a better character. Also, we know Aberforth was wrong, as Harry reminded him. Dumbledore always regretted what has happened to Ariana.

Richard

[* amanda]

Richard, I definitely agree that Dd having skeletons in his closet made him a more realistic and better character. Although - I have to wonder - why now? Why in the last book?

With that said, I severely disliked him the moment Snape did, too; when Dd said he had only kept Harry alive so he could prep him to sacrifice himself for the greater of mankind. That's kind of a gruesome thing to do to someone without their consent, and quite arrogant to assume that they would receive their consent. Snape, in a bizarre way, had made himself a surrogate to Lily; working to ensure Harry's protection out of his memory of her. I think his reaction was really quite parental and protective of Harry; Snape essentially said, you've got to be kidding, this is wrong for us to ask of Harry. I also happen to agree with Aberforth a bit in that Dd was being incredibly selfish, not to mention having lied to Harry and Severus quite often throughout the years.

On the other hand, did Dumbeldore have a choice? I am not convinced he handled Harry's situation well enough to Severus and Harry, but on the other hand how does one handle a situation where you know that in the end you're going to have to ask someone, perhaps two people, to willingly sacrifice themselves for your plan...

the question is, would there have been another way for Harry to survive (like we know he did) and why didn't Dd try to find that solution? It seemed to me that Dd only went the easiest and most straightforward route to killing Voldy: find and destroy Horcruxes, kill Harry, rather than look for alternatives.

I finished my reread last night and I have to say that this was indeed a fantastic book. I would say that my favorite books were the 1st, the 3rd, and the 6+7th combined. I think JKR once said that 6_7 were kind of "part 1, part 2" type books and I have to agree... those two really seemed like a pair. Even though the entire series was a continuous series, it was those two books that were the climax and conclusion of the series.

[Fins]

One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that DD did not set Harry up to die. Voldy did that by using Harry's blood to reconstitute his body. DD had no part in that. Voldy is the one that sealed Harry's fate. I believe that DD knew that Harry would choose to die in order to finish off Voldy and therefore set everything in motion that he did with that in mind. I think he gave Harry enough information to figure everything out himself. DD had to juggle everything with Harry without telling anyone... you saw what happened when Snape found out. Can you imagine what would have happened if Molly found out... or Ginny, Ron, or Hermione??? Lupin or Tonks? DD also had to keep Snape's secret secret as well.

I was also wondering about whether or not Snape chose to treat Harry so badly... He almost had to because there were so many Death Eater kids at Hogwarts that could have easily reported back to their parents if Snape treated Harry nicely. I just wish there would have been some sort of resolution of this at the end... some sort of acknowlegement between the two. I suspect that the movie will have something other than just Snape's final words being "Look at me!"

[* amanda]

Ok, you brought up some fantastic points, fins.

I will give you that - that Dd had no choice but to keep the secret from everyone. But I am not sure why he was so secretive to Harry. I think after book 5, 6, Harry should have known - and not had to figure it out on his own. Then again, where's the drama (literary drama) in that?

Certainly, I think it was a good decision to not tell the Weasleys, the mauraders, etc., because I am certain they would have gone after Voldy in order to try to prevent Harry from having to die, but that would be foolish and they all would have ended up dead.

Secondly, interesting point about Snape that hadn't crossed my mind. He may have wanted to treat Harry a bit poorly because of James. But he might have been able to restrain himself under normal circumstances. Having to be a convincing bad guy - who Deatheater's children would have no doubt that he would still have sympathies for The Dark Lord - gave him license to treat Harry just that bit more poorly than he otherwise would have.

Isn't it fun that although the series has come to a close JKR still left us with lots of theorizing and speculation?