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Post by Amanda at work on Jun 9, 2008 9:39:50 GMT -5
Yes, it's time for this thread, I do believe. I first posted about this series several months ago and Arabella and Sapphire both read it (I believe Cali also bought the 1st book?). Anyways, for the past 2 weeks on MSN Gayle and I have been discussing the books and I felt that maybe others would like to join us in these discussions as well.
First of all - let me briefly describe the series. The plot is about a typical, smart girl named Bella who moves to a new, remote town in the Northwest and meets and falls in love with a beautiful, handsome, intelligent, and fascinating guy. The catch? He's a vampire. They're a different kind of vampire, though - his "family", a group of seven vampires who live together in Bella's town - only "eat" animals and enjoy fitting into typical human society. They drive cool cars, go to school, and the "dad" of the family is even a doctor at the local hospital. Before I give too much away (I'm not really - all of this is revealed in the first few chapters of the first book) - the story is not only fun and different, but it brings up some amazing moral themes. At this point, there are three books in the series and the author has promised four books in the series told from the perspective of the main character, the fourth book to be released this August. The series as a whole brings up fascinating themes about mortality, morals, an afterlife, good vs. evil, acceptance, destiny, love, family, etc., and it has fun doing it. The story is told in less of a "mystery novel" style than JKR and is more of a continuously, naturally-flowing narrative told from the perspective of the female lead. But the page-turning story is reminiscent of JKR and our favourite series.
Sapphire and I have found that both Meyers, the author of this series, and JKR, approach many of the same themes but in different ways. We have enjoyed comparing and contrasting the different approaches that the authors have to some of the same messages.
Not to mention, Edward is now high on our Squeal list.
Now you've been thoroughly introduced to the concept of the series, go read the 1st book if you can!
To all who have read this book, what was your favourite part? What similar themes did you find between this book and the HP series? Let's start by discussing the 1st book only in case anyone here has yet to read the 2nd or 3rd. If you have read all three, please say so and maybe we can continue with a discussion on the 2nd/3rd book.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 9, 2008 22:24:13 GMT -5
Hiya! I am a bit flummoxed to find this right after I posted on the Great Hall thread about starting one. Amanda, we must have some type of weird ESP vibe going. First Phoenix, now this. Be very afraid! OK, on to Twilight. My first reaction to the book was, "It's good, but it's not Harry." Then I bought the second and third... Then I read the whole series again....OK, a third time...and now a fourth. Well, that's certainly how it started with HP. I think the biggest similarity between the two books is how the authors easily and mysteriously draw you into their magical worlds before you can even snicker (in your best Uncle Vernon sneer), "There's no such thing as wizards, ghosts, witches, dragons, elves, or vampires"--even heavenly perfect 'vegetarian' ones! That is a true gift these two authors possess, and it's rare--very rare. These worlds are so full of magic that I am loathe to leave them once I step through that looking glass. I have to admit that I do love Harry most, hero-wise. He is endearingly innocent, pure and brave. Bella makes me a bit miffed at times--especially when she uses Jacob Black--no matter how unwittingly. I am not convinced that her total devotion to Edward is completely...whole (for lack of a better word.) She mostly thinks of his glorious physical being. I am beginning to wonder if he has her mesmerized with his crooked smile, smouldering eyes and perfect body--not to mention his smell. (I wonder if other people can smell it too.) We really don't get much insight into what Edward is really like in his deepest, darkest soul (yes, he must have one!) It seems to me that his attachment to Bella is also more to do with her smell. What's up with that, anyway? I said before that it was as if he was imprinted on her, the way the Werewolves sometimes can be. Speaking of smell, there are still some mysteries surrounding Bella that I want answers to. I mentioned in our chat the other night about how she says, early on, that she doesn't seem to be compatible with other teens--or other people, including her mother, for that matter. She wonders if her brain is wired differently. Then, a few chapters later, she discovers that Edward can read minds, but not hers. Edward says something like, "Perhaps you think in AM and I can only read FM." OK, but she is the only person he has come across in his loooooong life that he can't read. Next, she "smells blood." "People can't smell blood," Edward says. Even the little pinprick needed to blood type makes her almost pass out. Other folks at least wait to be pricked themselves. (My sister points out that, when Tyler was brought into the Emergency Room where she was, he was bleeding copiously and it had absolutely no affect on Bella. Hmmmm. ) The biggest difference between HP and Twilight, in my opinion, has to do with...sex. Yep. Even though Edward and Bella behave themselves admirably (well, Edward does...Bella would have gone over to the dark side long ago, I think! These books simply crackle and spark with sensuality. Holy cow--all it takes is Edward gently rubbing his hand against Bella's face and I am having to turn on the air conditioner! My dear, darling Harry is, for most of the series, not much beyond, "Wannagoballwime." AWWWW.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 9, 2008 22:34:37 GMT -5
Can I keep on or WHAT? My favourite part of the first book is the scene in the meadow in which Edward steps into the sun. What a fantastic mind picture that is. Whoot! Gotta hit the a/c! ;D
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Post by sapphire on Jun 9, 2008 22:52:50 GMT -5
OH DRATS--MAJOR SPOILERS--OH DRATS--MAJOR SPOILERS--OH D While I am thinking of it, some questions about Vampires: Do Vampires bleed? We know that venom spreads through the body, via the heart pumping blood, in order for someone to become a Vampire, but they have no heart beat after that. So, where does the blood go? Is it changed into some kind of Vampire serum? If they don't have blood, then, pardon me...let me think of a delicate way to ask how the males would, erm...well, Edward promises Bella that they will "try" something once they are married, before she changes. Isn't blood required for "that"? Speaking of "that", if Edward is afraid he might accidentally hurt Bella to the point of actually "breaking" her, how is he going to get into the right mind frame? Doesn't sound like much fun, imho. I don't mean to...well, yes, I guess I do.
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air conditioned office amanda
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Post by air conditioned office amanda on Jun 10, 2008 12:15:53 GMT -5
I'll come back and post once I've sufficiently cooled off. Your posts made me feel rather warm, sapphi.
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Post by * amanda on Jun 10, 2008 21:09:03 GMT -5
So work and fatigue is getting in my way of posting but sapphi, I meant to send this link along to you. Stephenie answered some questions about Twilight on a fan message board earlier this year. Here are the links: twilightmomsforums.freeforums.org/stephenie-meyer-qas-f99.html May answer some of your questions! I'll post more later when I'm less sleepy - although before I go I will say "wow!" 4 times! I am sad to admit I've only been through the series 2x...
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Post by sapphire on Jun 11, 2008 21:51:11 GMT -5
Amanda, I enjoyed reading those tremendously--thanks! Stephenie sounds so approachable and sweet--very much in the Jo Rowling mold. I love getting this kind of information about an author and her thought processes. So, what do you think about Edward? Besides being the most perfect male ever imagined, I mean. You can certainly tell a woman wrote him--he listens to Bella and really cares about what she likes, thinks, feels. HA! Show me that man! On the other hand, he does seem a bit too controling at times. I almost feel like Bella is being treated like either a small child--much beloved--or a doll. Not sure I could deal with either of those very long....OK, I guess I would give it a try.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 14, 2008 20:52:19 GMT -5
OK, so I am the only one here...no worries. I have been reading New Moon these last few days. (I cheated and read Twilight twice in a row just because I love how Edward and Bella meet!) Amanda, I am going to go ahead and talk on. No point in waiting for anyone else, I think. New moon, of course, refers to the time of month when there is actually no moon, and I love the title. It can relate to so many things--Edward leaving, Jacob becoming more important, werewolves (although they tell Bella the whole moon issue is just Hollywood...wonder what Lupin would say to that!) Anyway, the series is perfectly named. I can't believe the original title was "Forks"! Would you pick up a book called "Forks" for heaven's sake? Me either. I was also surprised that Jacob wasn't more than a plot advancer at first. She certainly wove a wonderful story around the three of them. I absolutely adore Jacob, and hate it when his heart is broken time and again. I understand Bella's tie to Edward, and I love Edward wholeheartedly, but I am not certain Bella deserves two such wonderful, unique men/creatures in her life. Which brings me back to my Bella harangue. I read where Stephanie says "Bella is 100% human girl," but something HAS to be special about her other than her scent. Even the Volturi can't work their particular...charms on her. Anyway, Edward is back, thank goodness. Life just isn't the same when he is away--for Bella AND for me.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 14, 2008 21:24:07 GMT -5
I have been thinking a lot about which of the two men would be the better choice for life partners. What a pleasant couple of guys to choose from. Of course, Bella loves both of them so much that knowing the pain she must inflict either way she goes is the bedrock of this story. On the one hand, Edward is gloriously gorgeous, kind, intelligent, rich, and absolutely besotted with Bella to the point that he won't live in a world without her. He is also somewhat controlling, marble hard, stone cold--literally, and a LOT older than he appears. Of course, he sparkles like his skin is embedded with millions of diamonds in the sunlight and he is a fast runner....Oh--and he could potentially lose control and drain all her blood at any moment--can't forget that! On the other hand, there is Jacob. Although not gloriously gorgeous, he is "sort of beautiful," with that russet skin, and jet black eyes ( I am a sucker for ethnic guys )He is sweet, sunny, funny and absolutely besotted with Bella to the point that he would take her even knowing she is a mess. He is also impulsive, a bit too warm, and somewhat immature. He, also is a fast runner, but has a tendency to burst into fur and fangs when overexcited....He isn't rich, but money isn't everything, I hear. We know that being too close to a werewolf has its pitfalls, too--look at Emily! He IS a good kisser.... Decisions, decisions.... My advice to Bella would be, all other things somewhat "even" perhaps she needs to think about...(dare I bring it up again???) sex. I already pointed out that, in her current state (human) sex with Edward doesn't sound all that pleasant--especially for him, and who wants to have sex knowing their partner isn't enjoying it as much? So, after she is turned into a vampire--assuming that she would eventually be--you have these two rock-hard folks...I dunno...it just doesn't sound very sexy. And there could be no children, if that's something Bella wants in her life. Now, Jacob is the polar opposite of Edward here. Where Edward is gentle and careful, Jacob is excited and...well...not careful. Passionate is the word I couldn't think of for a moment--darn senioritis! When it wasn't clear that Bella loved him, I had no qualms about her turning Jacob down, but now, I think she needs to keep him on her short list. After all, she can remain human and not become a blood sucking killer with Jacob. That's certainly worth considering. And there are the two little boys she saw in her imagination to think about. Which brings me back to my Bella harangue yet again! This girl has prophetic dreams. Will we see more about this? I hope so. Do I think she will choose Jacob in the end? No. Poor Jacob.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 14, 2008 22:46:38 GMT -5
Of course, all other things aren't "even"--Bella loves Edward way more than anything else. Therefore, I hope Jacob finds someone else, because no one should have to be "settled for." He is a wonderful person/werewolf. Do you think we are going to hear more about Leah in this next book? She seems to be upset with Bella. Besides being very clumsy and a danger magnet, Bella just ticks people off a lot, doesn't she?
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Post by amandainmtl on Jun 16, 2008 14:39:46 GMT -5
Phew! I have been patiently waiting to be able to continue with this thread, Gayle. Sorry for the delays. Between moving and a visit from my dad and not having internet at home, I haven’t had any chances to read your great posts much less reply!
Thankfully it’s a slow Monday morning so I can now!
Where to begin?
First of all, a word on the author, as you mentioned. I adore authors who are passionate about their work, who don’t underestimate the intelligence of the reader, and who write for the sheer joy of it. All of these factors result in an amazing work, whether it’s Austen, Rowling, or Meyer. You can just *tell.* We’re lucky to live in the “internet age” where writers are more accessible to the public and I certainly appreciate authors like JKR and Meyer who are reasonably open about their thought process – something that is very personal but they’re willing to share!
I have tried to figure out who I’d pick – Jacob or Edward, as in me, personally – if I was in Bella’s place, and whether Bella would make the same choice as me. And I’m fairly certain that although I’d be physically more attracted to Edward, that Jacob’s personality is more what I look for in a guy. Jacob is funny, easy to be with, great conversationalist – never awkward, just comfortable and great to be with. It sounds like the making of a great friend turned romance… which is what happened with Bella (and me, to an extent, in the past). Jacob’s also, as you’ve pointed out, far more –shall we say- technically compatible. He’s passionate, warm (I always wonder how enjoyable Bella really finds it when she’s lying down next to a cold-hard guy?) and although he’s very protective and caring, Jacob does let Bella be Bella. He’ll let her run around and fall down and have her own life and own way, but at the end of the day he’ll be there to help wash up her scrapes and cuddle with her. And, finally, I have to admit… I thought that the kiss between Bella and Jacob at the end of Eclipse was way, way more passionate than any single kiss she shared with Edward. Edward’s kisses are delicate and have that sort of tantalizing danger/forbidden factor, but Jacob’s kiss was pure passion and you could sign me up for that one any day.
Then we add in the factor of children and a somewhat normal life… and yeah, Jacob would be my guy. For sure. Right?
However, with that said, let me reconsider Edward. He’s dangerous and I don’t like to purposely put myself into danger. He is cold and hard – and like I mentioned above, I’m not sure how appealing that would actually be, after a long day, to fall into the arms of a guy who feels like a statue. And as you mentioned, I also have difficulty with his over-protectiveness of Bella. I really appreciate it when my boyfriend is concerned for my safety, and calls to make sure I got somewhere safely or to make sure I’ll make it home ok when the roads are bad, that’s all great. But Edward physically tries to stand in the way of anything that could potentially scratch Bella. So that’s good when there’s a maniacal vampire in front of them, but bad when he essentially puts her on lockdown when he goes out of town. That knocks some major points off of him in my eyes.
But then again, let’s consider his motives for being so overprotective. I think the main reason is that he is a superhuman-strength vampire and virtually indestructible. He just discovered the most precious thing to ever come along to him, ever, in his life, and compared to himself, this thing is so incredibly breakable. To him, Bella can be squashed as easily as an ant. He so badly doesn’t want to lose her because to lose her would be to lose the most wonderful thing that ever happened in his life. Naturally, that’s what drives him to be so overprotective, I believe. Have you had a chance to read the 1st chapter of Breaking Dawn in the back of the Eclipse special edition in the bookstore, sapphi? I got a kick out of the fact he bought her a bomb-proof car…
Although, I think he also has a bit of an ego on him and that contributes, too. He is a little controlling in that higher-than-thou turn-of-the-century way. It’s interesting how the Vampires have lived through decades of change yet retain some old-fashioned manners. It makes sense that his origins in the turn of the century might still shine through. The ego and the sort of protective, chivalrous attitude towards women are trademarks of this era. In its own way, it’s kind of sweet as long as it doesn’t go overboard. And for reasons mentioned above, Edward does toe the line, but he’s not so bad. His ego might also come from the fact that he’s been through Ivy League schools a few time… superhuman monster or not, I think that requires an ego to survive! LOL.
Physically, Edward is far more beautiful and wonderful smelling than Jacob, which definitely gives him points. He turns into a sparkly diamond like being in the sun which is really awesome. He’s buff, which is totally hot. And he wears great clothes. All things which would definitely attract me and any other gal. But the downside is he’s cold and hard which I’d find would need a bit of getting used to. Would kissing be all that pleasant?
And he’s so restrained – yes, I know he needs to be – but as you mentioned that’s not very fun when you, erm, start getting into some heavy physical stuff. I think Jacob wins that round, hands down.
BUT… he’s really smart. I would get bored if I couldn’t talk about virtually any subject or any current event with a potential mate, and although Jacob is clever and witty, I am not sure I could get into a hardcore discussion about Lebanese politics with him. I’m pretty sure I could with Edward. That wins him major points for me. Unfortunately, this is the side of Bella Meyer hasn’t let us blatantly see, but has hinted at. Yes, intellectual discussions would be dull and would be inappropriate for the storyline if we spent time learning about Edward’s intellectual intelligence. But Bella was apparently in some advanced placement programs and she seems to do well in school, so I imagine she would value his intelligence in the long-run. I imagine that intellect is a part of their mutual attraction, even though we don’t get a blatant sense of that in the books. Their mutual appreciation of music, and Bella’s general boredom with the mundane world of her classmates also suggest that her interests lie in a bit more of an advanced realm than that of a typical 17 or 18 year old’s interests.
And let’s talk about $$$ for a second… while $ isn’t everything to me, I loooooooooooooooooove luxury cars and jewelry and that earns major points for me. (OK, who doesn’t, really?) I pretty much started drooling when I heard Edward drove a Volvo (I remember thinking, “this is such a cool book!” when the Volvo was mentioned) and then kept drooling when Carlisle drove a Mercedes and Rosalie had a BMW M3. *drooldrooldrool.* And in the 1st chapter of BD, we find that Edward got Bella a sweet new Mercedes. *more drooling.* and not to mention, the bracelet and ring. That bracelet so has a diamond on it, and I imagine her ring is gorgeous. Sparklies and cars… where can I sign up?!
Well I started out this long “essay” of sorts saying I’d go for Jacob, but Edward’s looks and intellect really attract me, too.
So they are tied now in my mind. What a great conundrum Meyer fashioned for us to ponder.
However, there are some major factors that push the balance back in Jacob’s favour. I still have a hard time stomaching the fact that to be with Edward, Bella has to commit to living forever. People have wanted that ability since, well, probably the beginning of time, but then again, that’s a long time and it’s fairly depressing, too, to have to live through so many generations. And to be a slave to your thirst…for human blood. Ugh. I get the impression the Cullens are more than a bit miserable to ALWAYS be a slave to their thirst since even animal blood doesn’t *totally* satisfy their cravings. That would be uncomfortable to live with. Besides, I think I’d miss things that I like, like Coke and cheese and popcorn and jelly beans…
The biggest loss is that Bella would be unable to have her own children. That’s a difficult thing to give up when you’re 19 and don’t know the full impact of your decision – it may not hit you for years, but I know losing that possibility would be excruciatingly difficult for me.
As far as the book goes, Meyer created two amazing men for different reasons, and I just love how she presents the theme of love. She has this love at first sight/destiny thing going with Bella and Edward, and then a friendship-turned-love with Bella and Jacob. It’s not often you get a story that explores the subject of being truly in love with two people at once in a pure, good way, and I love how this became an underlying theme of the book.
As you said, though, Bella’s going to end up with Edward. She just loves him too much. She consistently chooses him over Jacob. And Jacob does deserve someone that loves him and only him. I think he’ll find that person. I think there’s the possibility someone new might come along and he’ll imprint on them… that way we will know he’s happy. (Although imprinting is a bit creepy, isn’t it? It seems to take away someone’s free will. That’s another subject to get on to.)
As for Bella turning into a vampire, I hope it happens, but as sapphi said, I hope she goes into it understanding and accepting the FULL impact of that action.
Here’s an interesting question to ponder: do you think there’s a way to turn back to being human after being a vampire? I don’t think Meyer will go that route, but… it could help.
And I do love the book titles as well and I’m trying to theorize what breaking dawn could refer to. It could first and foremost reflect Bella’s new life. (I.e. “Twilight” was the beginning of the end of the “human” part of her life.) I do love the series’ names. New Moon and Eclipse can both happen during a night, and then at the end of the day, you have Breaking Dawn. Interestingly, I’ve seen the names of the French books and they’re completely different. They are “Temptation” “Fascination” and something else (not necessarily in that order). So those don’t actually give a hint. It’s too bad, I far prefer the celestial theme.
OK, I have officially been writing out this post all day (going back + fourth to it while working) and I am sure it has reached massive proportions. I am also pretty sure I’ll post something else right away, but I’m going to give this a go and hopefully give your eyes a rest after having read it!
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Post by sapphire on Jun 16, 2008 19:41:53 GMT -5
Great post, Amanda. It was quite a relief to see that you had found time to get here, as, even though I do enjoy my own company, another point of view sure livens things up! ;D
I did get a chance to read that first chapter--made a special trip to Wally World just to do that--and loved it. Bless his heart, Edward does worry about Bella. The car is way over the top and so hilarious. Dying to see if Edward was just being funny. If so, what a great, if very expensive, sense of humor. If not, I might have to take off a couple of points myself, and I love Edward. In fact, the main reason I want Bella to choose him is because he would be in soooooo much pain if she didn't. For a rock hard guy, he is very vulnerable, and somewhat breakable himself, in a way.
I was just reading the part of Eclipse where Rosalie comes into Edward's room to tell Bella her story, and it makes me begin to wonder if perhaps Meyer might surprise us and have Bella choose Jacob after all. Or perhaps have her decide to remain human at least. Some of the things Rosalie says to Bella sound suspiciously sane and grown up, as if Meyer might be saying to her young audience that they, too need to not make permanent decisions too early and impulsively. Having read a bit about Stephenie, I discovered that the only time she has experienced the kind of love Edward has for Bella was with her children. Would she have Bella give up that experience?
You make a good point about the immortality issue. I love the way they captured that in the movie trailer with the tagline: "When you can live forever, what do you live for?" Clearly, the most important thing is love. Need to do some research so going to post so I don't lose this.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 16, 2008 20:45:36 GMT -5
Now, here is where Twilight and Harry Potter match up: the whole issue of immortality. How interesting to come at it from such different angles. For Harry/Rowling, there is no question that, except for Voldemort, immortality is not a desirable thing. Certainly, Harry never even considers crossing over for it, and Dumbledore makes his views known quite early on. But wait--perhaps I should qualify that we are defining "immortality" as permanent existence on the earth as a human-ish type of being. Although that is what Voldy seeks, Jo also makes reference to another type of immortality, something along the Judeo-Christian lines of life after death in some other realm--a heaven of some sort. Stephenie hasn't said a lot about it, but I am thinking that she shares that same belief, as she talks about Edward being afraid that he has lost his soul, which is the part that "goes on." I wonder what Edward thinks happens to vampires who are destroyed. Where was I going with this? OK. So, with Twilight, we have the main character not actively seeking immortality, but willing and eager to take it on as a side effect of becoming the equal of the vampire she loves, even though several people have discouraged her from doing it. If anything is "permanent", immortality would be that. I don't think Bella has spent even a moment thinking about it. I was thinking that Stephenie made this story difficult for herself with the "rules" she imposed on the characters, both vampires and werewolves. I still just can't imagine a romantic interlude with two rock people clanking and clattering against each other. And don't forget that Jacob is just as potentially dangerous as Edward--perhaps more so because he is both a new werewolf and just a young adolescent in a big body. Even Sam lost control for an instant and forever marred the life of his beloved Emily. Jacob has shown us that he can be hurtful when upset. The return of the motorcycles proved that. Trying to remember everything I wanted to comment on so I can do just one post.... Although Stephenie says Bella was in an advanced program in Phoenix, I hadn't noticed her being really intelligent until you mentioned it. For some reason, I never pictured her in a conversation on foreign policy or political issues. What struck me was more her "life smarts", which she gained from having to be the adult in her relationship with her mother. I wonder if that is something that Edward also found in her. I also agree on why Edward would be so overly protective. Not only has he finally, after almost a century, found the love of his existence, he has experienced being without her and found it to be excruciating. No way would he want anything happening to her now. On Stephenie's website, she has a page of alternate book covers that she thought of, and the one for Eclipse, plus her comments about it were really telling. She said she felt that people would be upset to have a picture of Jacob "eclipsing" Edward! DARNED RIGHT! LOL! But, what does that mean? Could it possibly be that "Breaking Dawn" refers to Bella "beginning to see the light"...and the light being the guy she refers to as "the sun"? Amanda, as a fan of Anne of Green Gables, like me, you do remember the chapter in which Anne spends the long night on her knees...gotta post--computer wonky
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Post by sapphire on Jun 16, 2008 21:43:58 GMT -5
Sorry about that. MSN seems to be on the fritz. In Anne of the Island, Anne is dating the perfect guy, old whatshisname. In a chapter titled "False Dawn", he proposes and, at the very last minute, Anne realises that she really doesn't love him and can't marry him. Hmmmm.... Then, a few chapters on, she discovers that Gilbert has typhoid fever (so glad we live in this time!) and is close to death. At that point, she knows that she has loved Gilbert all along. HMMMMMMMMMMMMM....
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Post by sapphire on Jun 16, 2008 21:55:44 GMT -5
So much for just one post. After all the pros and cons and quite mature thinking, I am going to go on record saying that I would take Edward hands down! What the heck? He is just too darned cute, vulnerable, sweet, rich and downright HHHHHOTTTT, marble-skinned or no. He makes steam condense on my glasses when I read about him--how sexy is THAT? (Is the darned air conditioner even ON? ) Having had the opposite, I would love to have someone love me the most--head over heels crazy about me. Bella--choose Edward!
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Post by AMANDAATWORK on Jun 18, 2008 8:26:46 GMT -5
I need more time to post here!!! Only 4 more days til I get my home internet back... OK, so yes. I love Jacob. But when it comes right down to it, I would soooo choose Edward. I think the combination of his exotic "classical" good looks (I'd fall head over heels over a guy who looks like a "Roman god" as Bella often puts it) and his crooked smile, delicious scent, gentle carresses, old-fashioned chivalry... oh yeah, I'd totally take him. Besides, his pure chemistry with Bella is so much stronger than her chemistry (which certainly exists) with Jacob. I think Bella has had the choice between the sensible choice (Jacob... although sapphi you bring up a good point that he's not perfect - he is, after all, a werewolf and there is major danger that comes with that - ) and the "follow her heart" choice, which is Edward. As a friend once said to me as we were watching a Bollywood film, "in Hollywood, people always go with their heart." I think that happens a lot in real life, too, for better or for worse. I don't see anything different about this story; there's way out other than to have Bella choose Edward. I hadn't thought of "Breaking Dawn" = the sun = connection to Jacob. Good catch. However, I just don't see this as a clue that Bella will pick Jacob. Yes, Gayle, you bring up a good point that Meyer has woven herself into a fairly tight spot. If I were her, I am not sure what I would do. I don't think I'd want to be in her place right now! She's woven this story that revolves around Bella and Edward, but she's made a pretty good case for Bella/Jacob, too. It's just that when we get right down to it, the story is first and foremost Bella/Edward. And to think about this story from Edward's perspective for a minute: part of him wants to do the right thing, which would be to let Bella go. But I just feel like Jacob could move on whereas for Edward, Bella really is "the one" and he would never, ever get over it. Aww. I'd feel terrible for him! I also loved the movie trailer tagline! I bet Meyer/her publishers wish they'd thought of that one! That truly sums up Edward's situation - he didn't have anything to define or give meaning to his life until Bella came along. Bringing up immortality as a theme both in this series and HP was a great comparison. In both series, I would say the authors have presented it as a negative. Rowling strictly warns us from it, and Bella seems to automatically "know" that it's a bad side effect that she's willing to "live" with. I do think we were exposed to people who wanted to be vampires, however, to obtain this immortality. Edward explained that the woman who worked in the Volturi's office as a secretary was only doing so as a gamble in hopes she'd be turned. What would her motive be? The only motive I could think of to explain that would be she wanted immortality. Meyer presented her as rather pathetic, however, and Bella pitied her. That was interesting. I totally need to read Anne of Green Gables again! I last read the series when I was really young. I should definitely re-read as an adult. I don't remember that scene. So speaking of rich guys, what do you think about Bella being so persistent from early on that she doesn't want anything fancy from Edward? I mean, in a new relationship, I can relate - it seems unbalanced if the other person is showering you with expensive gifts. But later on, Bella still doesn't want the fancy cars, jewelry, comfy/extravagant bed, and everything else Edward wants to give her. Is that realistic? I mean, after a few months into the relationship if I was repeatedly told that Edward would buy me an Audi... I'd be like, "sure!" Not sure that aspect of Bella is terribly realistic.
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Post by amandastillworking on Jun 18, 2008 14:12:18 GMT -5
Here's something that I've been dying to discuss. I brought it up a little in one of our chats a while back but thought it would be interesting to take this topic further. Although I have relatively conservative values, I enjoy debating all aspects of feminism as it relates to art and culture. Feminist thinking certainly has some interesting applications when brought up in relation to the Twilight series. Take a look at this: Not paradoxically, it could also be argued that, in their nostalgia for a past that puts agency in the hands of bloodsucking males, Ms. Meyer’s books are fundamentally antifeminist. Best-selling young adult author Meg Cabot (The Princess Diaries) has written on her blog: “I didn’t take my husband’s last NAME when we got married. Do you honestly think I’d like a story about a girl considering changing SPECIES for a guy? No offense to any of you, but as a feminist, I just can’t go there.” - New York magazine online. Then I found this article, which I found to be truly scathing: cecily.vox.com/library/post/mamas-dont-let-your-babies-grow-up-to-read-stephenie-meyer.htmlThe writer of this blog says the books are "an allegory for abusive relationships and the Stockholm Syndrome" and "Bella's obsession -- there's no other way to describe it -- is unhealthy and sets a really scary precedent for young women who may find themselves involved with abusive boyfriends." The author also had problems with the fact that premarital teen sex was discouraged in the books. OK, I definitely can't agree with the woman's incredibly strong feminist views, as although I have a dash of feminism in me, I am really quite conservative in other regards. I am strongly against dating multiple partners at once, and although I am strongly against abusive relationships, I don't think that just because one person has more power in a certain aspect of a relationship (assuming the other partner has a different power in another aspect of the relationship), I don't think that's unhealthy. I certainly don't believe that being in love - even extremely in love - is unhealthy or old fashioned, either. However, I think the woman brought up a few good points, especially once you tone down her POV slightly: the relationship is obsessive, and relationships that are that obsessive can become unhealthy. Bella's lack of a backbone a few times disturbed me when I first read the series. It's one thing if you're obsessively in love but can still stand on your own two feet and have a good head on your shoulders; it's another if you're obsessive and dependent. Bella borderlines on being a little too needy. Because of this borderline trait of hers, although I wanted to recommend the book to a few friends, after the 1st read-through, I was afraid of friends criticizing it for being anti-feminist. On the other hand, during my 2nd re-read I paid more attention to the feminist angle. I found more clues that Bella has redeeming qualities other than just being obsessively in love (for instance, caring for her dad by cooking for him; valuing schoolwork; valuing true friendships rather than rolling with the crowd - i.e. the reason she was never as close to Jessica as she was with, say, Angela). Bella also isn't a "traditional woman" by any means and the woman who wrote that blog article skipped over this point entirely. Bella is dead-set on marrying Edward (although, the argument that she would "change species" for him is perhaps a wee bit more of a committment than marriage, LOL). Bella doesn't want to accept fancy gifts and doesn't seem to expect Edward to provide for her (even though he can). She also wasn't Edward's biggest cheerleader for his overprotective tactics. And, she would have gone down "the dark side" on the sex issue long, long ago. It's Edward who brings in the more traditional views, not Bella. And by presenting both sides, I believe that Meyer isn't particularly advocating one or the other. Although, Edward is "winning", if you will, since he's getting his way on the marriage/sex issue. The bottom line is, this is also a teenage romance, not two 30-year-old adults who have more experience falling into this sort of obsessive behaviour. It explores the topics of love, passion, obsession = by a teenager. And who can't relate to a first, engrossing love that made you do stupid things, or a heartbreak that turned you into a blubbering, useless pile of dust. But, I loved the series as a whole because Bella does develop and grow as she experiences new things. I hope to see some more growth and maturity on her part by the 4th book, so, as we said, she can understand the true impact of her actions and make an educated decision on what to do. As you can tell, I certainly don't agree with that blog post beyond the fact that it rang a bit true on the obsessive/potentially destructive behavior issue. But it was still an interesting read.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 18, 2008 23:19:50 GMT -5
First, thank you, Amanda, for introducing me to these books. I have been feeling unanchored now that there is nothing more to debate with my beloved Harry. You certainly put some meat on the table, so to speak, and I am glad to have something to sink my teeth into. (I must be channeling Edward tonight! I just finished reading that blog and it's all I can do to not start ranting, raving and pulling my hair out. GOOD LORD what a lot of frothing at the mouth over an innocent and engrossing read. Someone hooooooooold me back! I feel kind of like I did when I first heard about HP leading children to witchcraft, for Pete's sake. DEEEEEP BREATHS. Being quite old, I was there for the first stirrings of the feminist movement, and supported--still support it--wholeheartedly. Not sure when it turned into this, though. I guess I watch too much cheesy TV because I thought young women today had gone completly the other way--i.e. "Girls Gone Wild," which would have made the original feminists go nuts and hurt people. The whole point of "Women's Lib" was to give women the freedom to choose the kind of life they wanted. Sure, for a while, if you "chose" stay at home mom, it was considered "less than", but we did seem to come to a truce when it was discovered that being a parent actually has some value in society. We did have the whole "free love" thing, but that really turned into a bust for women, as teen pregnancy, absentee fathers, AIDS, etc. bit us in the face. We should have just settled for "women might enjoy sex if men did it right" and left it at that". All this just to say I think it stinks that this young woman finds fault with Bella and Edward for choosing abstinence. Whether it "works" or not, it makes for a very sexual story! OK, dammit, so she has some valid points. I am disturbed by Bella's total lack of self worth. I think it would be great if she was at least a little concerned for her own survival. I don't, however, find her (just a wee bit obsessive, if you must) love for Edward to be unrealistic--been there, done that. It's very telling that these books are so popular with young girls--it speaks to their hearts, I think. Wish I hadn't closed that window, as I can't remember any other points she made that I agreed with at the moment. I was mad. LOL Where she really got my dander up was when she started on the "abusive relationship" crap. There is absolutely NOTHING abusive about her relationship, neither physical, mental or emotional. PUH LEASE! Yes, I was ticked off with Edward when he had Alice "kidnap" her. That was wrong and very old fashioned, Me Tarzan, You Jane, but Bella escaped and Edward rethought it and realized the error of his ways, so get over it, already. He learned. Just because he was overbearing doesn't mean you toss him out. No one would be in a relationship if that were the case. Better that he is a little over protective than not enough--at least that's the guy I would want. Besides, if Bella had shown that she had any self protective instinct at all, he wouldn't have felt the need to keep her safe at any price. I would do that for a child I loved...maybe an adult, too. I think this might go long--please don't feel that you must read it. I think that blog pushed some buttons. I had to laugh at the comment about not changing last names for a guy, "why would I change species?" Erm...it's fiction. That's what this story is about. Love with the perfect....other species. ROFL. So, have the conversation--that's what everyone else is doing--should she or shouldn't she? It's thought-provoking. What exactly does being human mean? What would YOU be giving up? How many other books give you this opportunity? And what value do you place on love? I sure wish I had answered those questions when it was my turn to decide. (Not that I married outside my species....I...guess.) One of the comments was that she was not thinking about how her decision would hurt her dad, Jacob, her mother. Who on EARTH makes love choices based on things like that? Maybe we should, but we don't. Love conquers all. If we chose things to please other people, we would end up resentful, always wondering "what if...?" That would be a miserable life, I think. I am going to let that go for a bit and comment on some other things from your post. On Bella "following her heart" by choosing Edward: Well, her heart changed a bit at the end of Eclipse, when she realized that she LOVED Jacob, too. Hearts are so darned fickle some times, aren't they? I also got a really strange feeling from that book cover thing in which Stephenie says that Jacob "eclipsed Edward" on her cover. Ominous, I thought. The ominous feeling continued into the first chapter of Breaking Dawn when we find Bella so uncomfortable with her new car and all the other fancies that Edward gave her. This is where I can comment on Bella and material wealth--perfect! Although I am, like Madonna, a material girl, I know people like Bella. She has no use for finery and glitz. Her favorite outfit is worn sweats or jeans and t-shirts. Diamonds make her break out into a sweat, totally unlike the one I get. She isn't just uninterested in nice things--she doesn't like them. Seems weird to me, but not totally unrealistic. My niece is like that. So, I have to wonder about Edward forcing these things on her (not in an ABUSIVE manner, let me hasten to add! They make her uncomfortable. They aren't "her." Will she get annoyed with this in the next book? I hope so. Edward has a lot to learn about women. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be fun to teach. It's getting late, so I will carry on tomorrow, if the mood strikes me. ;D
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Post by sapphire on Jun 18, 2008 23:24:34 GMT -5
Yes--reread Anne of Green Gables--what a treat!
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Post by sapphire on Jun 18, 2008 23:38:17 GMT -5
Gah--I can't stand it! What a rigid, judgmental, holier-than-thou bit of PC blather that blog was! Stockholm Syndrome...give me a BREAK! OK, this is cutting into my reading time--back to Edward and Bella!
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