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Post by * amanda on Jun 19, 2008 8:43:53 GMT -5
haha, Gayle, this is going to be a boring post because I agree with everything you said.
To recap, we both agree that the only valid smidgen of opinion that blogger had was that Bella needs a bit more of a personality beyond being in love. I hope that we get to see more of that in Breaking Dawn - I think we started to see more in New Moon and Eclipse.
People like Meg Cabot truly bug me. everyone has a right to their own opinion about keeping their last name, etc., but I do hate that higher-than-thou attitude when they in return seem so judgmental towards women who do want to go the traditional route. But I am particularly sensitive to that issue. Where I grew up in Conservativeland, Michigan, if the mother had a different last name than their child, that meant they were divorced or estranged from the child's father (hey, it happens... I respect that... but a lot of times these children were made fun of in school and felt "different" - so I've always felt a stigma attached to having a child not have the mother's name). But here in Canada, believe it or not, you actually have to pay a hefty fee to get your last name changed when you get married!!! And you have to PROVE that it is against your religion and you will be seriously discriminated against within your social circle if you do keep your maiden name after marriage, in order to even APPLY to get it changed!!! I already told my boyfriend that if we get married, I want his name, and I'm willing to fight the government for it. It's a firm belief for me to have the last name, because I firmly do not want to push out children (sorry) who end up having a different name than me! (Incidentally, children still take the father's last name in Canada... now tell me what purpose it serves to force the mother keep her own name and the children to have the father's name??? I see no benefit...) Anyways, what I'm getting at here... what am I getting at? Oh, I know. Whether you are a bleeding-heart liberal or an old-fashioned conservative, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and own free will, whether it's changing their name or changing their species. so stop sounding so judgemental towards it, blog poster and Meg Cabot! Grr. (by the way, I've read a few of Meg's books and I was surprised that she's such a self-proclaimed feminist. In one of her books - most, in fact - the ditzy female lead goes head-over-heels for a guy and they often end up having sex on a whim at the age of 17 or 18. That's not exactly positive or progressive, in my mind, because as sapphi said, it's not that great of a deal when you end up being pregnant at 17 or having a STD, etc.
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Post by * amanda on Jun 19, 2008 8:46:48 GMT -5
haha, I'm sorry I used the word "conservative" on here because now we're going to be plagued by banner ads for McCain on this section of the board. I am having to displeasure of viewing one right now.
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Post by * amanda on Jun 19, 2008 8:47:37 GMT -5
Is that McCain with Lieberman? OMG>>> crazy. That's a dirty trick... get a liberal to stand with you on your conservative campaign to try to capture all of the undecided voters who don't like Obama... (and it's working. I like Lieberman.)
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Post by sapphire on Jun 19, 2008 20:35:56 GMT -5
I just finished Eclipse again, and caught Jacob's comment about not being able to "compete with an eclipse." That made me feel more reassured that Edward would win the day. When I bought the book (special edition with the new chapter) I discovered that it contained an iron on transfer--actually, two of them. One says, "Camp Edward", the other "Camp Jacob." OK, I do have a tattoo of Harry Potter on my clavicle, but I am NOT going to wear that! ROFL I had some more thoughts on Bella and her reluctance to take expensive gifts from Edward. She comments several times on how "unbalanced" she feels her relationship with Edward is. Not only is he incredibly good looking, strong and intelligent, he is also unbelievably wealthy. Well, I can relate, somewhat. I come from a very blue collar background, and I married into an old, wealthy family. Even though my ex was possibly the stingiest individual since Scrooge, the difference was uncomfortable at best, and destructive at its worst. I applaud Bella's desire to be her own person. Heck, my ex wasn't even good looking, and I was totally intimidated at times. He didn't have super powers either! I am still mulling over the comments made by the "feminist", but am not currently fuming. It occurs to me that people who live by these radical, rigid rules are almost always angry, unhappy people. Bottom line is, in her efforts to be the ultrafeminist, she missed the whole point of a sweet, sexy, engrossing book. Her loss. Amanda, your comments about how people who have different last names from their parents are viewed both in your part of the U.S., and Canada, were most interesting to me. I was so fortunate to spend most of my life in Albuquerque, which is a surprisingly liberal thinking, non judgmental place. Mostly because of the history and ethnic make up, I suppose, but I find myself proud to be from here. The attitude seems to be to each their own, live and let live, for the most part. (We do have some Texans, but try to ignore them. ;D) I work with low income families, many from Mexico or other Central American, third world places, and many with different last names, not only from their mother, but sometimes from one sibling to the next. Wonder what those Biblebelters would say about that. Personally, I changed my name back to my maiden name when I divorced. Why would I want to carry such a burdensome reminder of a failed relationship with me? I didn't have children, but it probably would have made no difference. I wonder what Bella will decide. Perhaps she will hyphenate....Would that appease the ultrafems?
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Post by * amanda on Jun 21, 2008 13:59:26 GMT -5
Well, as a disclaimer, I want to re-iterate that I am 120% pro everyone having a *choice* about what they do with their names. (What really makes me fume is when Quebec gives no choice - you HAVE to keep your maiden name.) But from my personal background, it truly was a negative thing to have a different name than your mom when you were a kid. And that's a stigma I'll always carry around for myself/my children. I certainly will never ever judge someone else by the name they carry, though. It's probably one of the biggest cultural shocks I've had since coming to live here and it's something I therefore feel strongly about (and Quebecors also feel strongly about it - even the most conservative of Quebecors will still keep their maiden name).
NM definitely sounds different than the bible belt, Gayle. I've known people from Ohio/Wisconsin/Kentucky/etc. and they're all fairly similar, culturally, to Michiganders. Although like I said I am literally from one of the very most conservative parts of North America (and now live in one of the very most liberal parts of North America, LOL.)
When it comes right down to it, Bella is the one who should decide on everything from her future, her soul, her name, her species, her car, what have you. Because she's ultimately the person who has to live with her decision. I think you are the one who said that?
The situation reminds me of my friend's story - my friend who moved away from her family in Brazil to go to San Francisco and marry an American man much older than her. It hurt her family a lot. For a long time, she considered not following her heart to make her family happy. But ultimately, she realized that she would have to live with the consequences either way - either being miserable, or making her family miserable. Ultimately she went for the guy and hasn't looked back. I think Bella is going to do that. In the end, it's you who has to live with the consequences and as much as you'd like to, you just can't do things to make others happy.
Here's a question: do you think Bella will tell Charlie and/or her mom about what Edward really is?
What I loved is that for all her flaws, Bella's mom seemed to instinctively know *something* was up with Edward. I think she'd be more likely to accept the truth (and accept their relationship) than her father. But I can't see either of Bella's parents supporting her decision to become a vampire, so that might be what will stop Bella from ever telling her parents the truth.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 22, 2008 19:01:51 GMT -5
I have been checking out some of the movie hype that is online and came across an interview with Kristen Stewart that I found pretty impressive and insightful. In it she talks about her understanding of Bella. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiOU24DjzFIEasier to cut and paste than to explain. I like this girl.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 22, 2008 19:20:44 GMT -5
I would really like Bella to explain to her parents. I know it would be weird, but this is her family and they really deserve to know. Bella's mom is both really cool and pretty darned self absorbed. I do like her, though. She reminds me of...me, quite a bit. I have no doubt that they would do anything and everything in their power to keep her from becoming a vampire, should she actually go through with it. Therefore, my advice to her would be the same thing I would have done as an impulsive teenager: do it first, then explain. Is this good advice from a grown up to a child? No. If it was my daughter and someone told her that, I would hunt them down. Fortunately, it's all fiction, though.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 22, 2008 19:29:07 GMT -5
Sorry for the multiple posts. Trying to multitask and things keep occuring to me. Do you think there is any chance at all that Bella will change her mind about changing? It just seems so very severe and final. As much as I want her to be with Edward, it makes me cringe. Then there are the Volturi to deal with. I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of them yet. I am intrigued with their skin. Seems that there may be a life span for vampires after all. Would they just eventually crumble and disappear? And do vampires have souls? I wonder if Carlisle might take on some larger role in the world of vampire education at some point. That would be awesome. He could make some great changes in how vampires live in the world.
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Post by amandajune23 on Jun 23, 2008 10:31:50 GMT -5
I agree that there are some unanswered questions as far as Vampires aging. They do seem to age (as we noticed with their skin) after time, and it does suggest at a life span. Maybe they simply “give up” after a while. It’s not a very pleasant process from the looks of it.
I don’t think Bella will be able to stand to be around her parents after she changes – remember, Edward is going to need to keep her away from civilization for perhaps decades. Her parents in the meantime will think she’s dead. That’s a horrible thing to put your parents through. I think she’s going to need to tell them first. Like you said before – Stephenie has dug herself into some pretty tight corners. I wonder how she will work around them. She is a fairly realistic, careful writer so I assume she has a plan…!
Here’s a strange thought. We know already that Bella has the ability to resist certain things – she has a very deep, closed mind which protects it from being read, or controlled by the Volturi, etc. What if it also helps her overcome her tremendous thirst? Just a thought. She (or her mind) does seem to have a grasp on the whole mind over matter part. She has tremendous self-control and protection over outside influences (except when she’s around Edward, hehe.)
As for Carlisle, it would certainly be a happy ending if he could influence others and put the vampire world back into order. However, I feel the vampire world is a metaphor for our world. You have people with good, honourable intentions who work hard and have a conscience (the Cullens), and then you have people who are slaves to their needs and wants (i.e. vampires who refuse to be ‘vegetarian’) yet show restraint and a desire and ability to maintain order and generally contribute to society (the Volturi), and then finally you have maniacal vampires who are constantly at war and live by animal instincts (Jasper’s old group/ the warring vampires down south). Isn’t that what people do? You have tiny enclaves of selfless people who work honourably and for the greater good; you have people who may not have the best of intentions, and may hold on to some of their primal instincts, but more or less, maintain order and for the most part a consistent and honourable lifestyle; and then you have crazy war-mongerers who just have no cares but for themselves. Isn’t raising armies, killing innocent people, not having a conscience about what you’re doing something we see quite often in this world? Think evil dictators, mass murderers, war mongerers, selfish people with no cares but themselves (Paris Hilton), etc. In this way, vampires are no different than people, really. And that brings us back to the soul conversation… yes, I think vampires have souls. If people do, vampires must, because I really don’t see people as ultimately being any less of monsters than vampires. (How’s that for cynical?! Or – look at it another way – I’m being optimistic about vampires!)
Also, this brings me to something else. The theme or allusion to Christianity is pretty strong in this book. Our infamous bloggers mocked Bella for her conservatism, but really I think it is Edward and his family who are the best metaphor for Christian values/ Christianity in this book. I’ve read a lot of reviews and comments online by people who say, “how could a Mormon write this book?” but to me a lot of her religious values shine through in it. The Cullens are a metaphor for a good, traditional Christian (or Mormon) family; hard workers, self-restraint, and they genuinely believe in a greater good. They resist their urges for addictive substances (blood to them is like caffeine to Mormons…) and we all know Edward is really into the old-fashioned values regarding sex and marriage. (or rather, marriage and sex.) That’s all a bit more conservative than I get the impression Bella’s values are. So from my first read-through I could tell that the author’s conservatism was influential in this book.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 23, 2008 21:03:59 GMT -5
Excellent and insightful as always, Amanda! I don't know about you, but I almost dropped the book when I read that infamous phrase, "for the greater good." Talk about a Harry Potter moment! Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I am hoping that Bella's wild stage will be brief. For one thing, she is going into this (assuming she really does) with her eyes open. Do we know if that has ever happened in the annals of vampire history? Well, maybe--i.e. the girl at Volturi headquarters, but that one's motives seem terribly self-serving. Bella, on the other hand, has tremendous motivation to work as hard as she possibly can to become a "vegetarian", not only because she wants to be like Edward, whom she admires beyond reason, as well as the Cullens, but also, she wants to be able to see her parents. She definitely has a head start, I think, in knowing what to expect. I think that if she told her parents beforehand, they would move heaven and earth to stop her. Maybe that's what the next book will cover. Can't wait to read it. Fortunately for us, it's just a couple of months waiting, as opposed to the interminable years we spent agonizing about our Harry. Speaking of "the greater good", I was so reminded of Harry when Bella unblinkingly went to face death at the hands of the vampire whose name I now forget thanks to advanced signs of aging. That took such incredible courage, just like Harry's walk through the forest in Deathly Hallows. Of course, minutes later, I realize the vampire's name was JAMES. GEEZ! Interesting how you correlated the vampires to our world as we know it. Maybe I have been in a funk, lately, but I totally agree with you. It seems to me that more and more we are becoming those nomadic bloodsuckers. Modern life seems to be leaching the humanity out of us. My thought about Carlisle kind of combines the "good human" with the religious aspect you mention. I see him as having the potential to become the equivalent of Martin Luther King Jr. in the vampire world. Of course, he wouldn't be fighting for equality, as the vampires are so much more gifted than us in so many ways. I guess it is the nonviolence message that reminds me of that great spiritual leader. We know that Carlisle is the son of a vicar, and very sure of his spirituality. He would be so good at it, especially if joined by Jasper and Esme. Stephenie's religious beliefs...I guess that is most evident in the talk Bella has with Carlisle while he sews up her arm on her birthday. She doesn't really hit us over the head with them, but they do wrap around this whole story, I think. It just broke my heart that Edward felt that he had no soul. This also leads me right back to Harry Potter. Despite the moronic bunch that accused her of turning the youth of the world into devil worshippers, it was very clear early on--at least to some of us--that her faith drove Jo's story from start to finish. I would sooooooo love to slap a few of those idiots.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 24, 2008 22:55:30 GMT -5
Trying to clarify my thoughts about what Bella should do. I find that, if undecided, making a comparison list helps, so... Edward's Best PointsGorgeous and perfect Sparkles in sunlight Mature Great family Wealthy Intelligent Strong High morals Immortal Sensitive and sweet Sterile Truly, madly, deeply in love with Bella Edward's DrawbacksGorgeous and perfect but cold and hard as marble Needs a cold, dreary environment Has to move a lot 108 years old in a 17 year old body A bit controlling/overprotective Wealthy Immortal Would require a major life change for a true partnership Sterile Jacob's Best PointsSunny personality Sorta beautiful Warm Great sense of humor Strong Faithful Down to earth like Bella Great mechanic Not sterile No major life change necessary to be with him Truly, madly deeply in love with Bella Jacob's DrawbacksImmature at this time May turn into a big wolf when upset Aging issues Really warm Can be impulsively hurtful Probably going to be a mechanic Not sterile (no idea where that really goes) Not sure it helped too much. I just worry that Bella will make a decision that she can't change and be sorry later on. It seems that a lot of Edward's pluses could just as easily be minuses.
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Post by sapphire on Jun 27, 2008 22:09:47 GMT -5
I am going down the wrong path, I think. It seems pretty clear that Edward is the one and poor Jake is going to have to be one lonesome werewolf. Poor guy. I think that Stephenie might bring on the war between the vampires and werewolves in this last book. I think Leah will play a big part, too. Possibly, Bella being changed would be the catalyst, but I have a feeling that won't happen--if it does--until the end of this last book. Should be interesting, one way or the other. Another detail about vampires that bothers me is that their hearts don't beat. I am assuming they have some other means of remaining animated. I wonder about their brain function as well. The heart thing bothers me the most because love, in any form, whether physical or emotional, seems to require a heartbeat, in my experience. I remember how mine pounded when I was head over heels, don't you, Amanda? I just can't figure out how vampires work at all, and it bothers me. No breathing, no heart beat, no blood....
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Post by sapphire on Jul 5, 2008 15:39:47 GMT -5
Or maybe not. That first chapter of Breaking Dawn is haunting me. I am disturbed that every single thing Edward is doing is so NOT what Bella is or wants. If it were me, I would be in 7th heaven, but wealth, ostentation and marriage are things that really make her cringe. OK, at this point, the only one of those I would want would be the wealth ;D, but at her age, I would have been quite ready to jump in head first. One of my favorite parts of Eclipse was when Edward was ready to completely cave in to every one of Bella's wishes--not only because it was so darned steamy, but also because it was absolutely selfless of Edward. He has proven on several occasions that he is willing and able to put his wishes away to make Bella happy. In fact, I was yelling (mentally-not aloud!) "No, Bella--don't do it!" because it was so generous and self sacrificing of him. Also, I think Bella is a bit spoiled (more than a bit, really) despite the fact that she doesn't have any sense of self preservation. Figure that one out. I agree with what Edward said in Twilight when he was saying he cared more for her than she for him because he was willing to deny himself the love of his life if it was in her best interest. She couldn't or wouldn't do that for either Edward or Jacob, both of which she proclaims her love. Sis and I both think she behaved very badly in Eclipse. She needed to leave Jacob alone or leave Edward. Of course, if she left Edward, I would have a giant conniption fit, so she should have left Jacob early on. Because he is "human", he could have and would have survived a broken heart much better than Edward. Even Bella was getting better and would have eventually moved on after Edward left in New Moon. Maybe she wouldn't have been quite the same, but she would have been a functioning person. Not so sure about Edward. The "Jacob" chapter of Eclipse was powerfully sad and poignant, but when I think of how it would be if there were an "Edward" chapter in Breaking Dawn, it makes me so upset I can't even consider it. Can't remember if I mentioned that I have been listening to the Playlists Stephenie provides (isn't that the coolest thing ever? ) and there is one song--"Luv" by Travis, that seems to go with the "Jacob" chapter and just breaks my heart. Sis said it would have been better for everyone if Tyler's van had just squished Bella early on. I told her that might be true, but would have made for a very short book.
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Post by sapphire on Jul 5, 2008 15:55:04 GMT -5
Here is how sister's book would read: Chapter 1 "Wow" Bella comes to Forks and sees a good looking guy who seems to hate her. Chapter 2 "Hmmm" Bella drives to school where she sees good looking guy glaring at her while she checks out her tires. Chapter 3 "Uh Oh" Bella hears a terrible screeching noise and looks up to find an out of control van speeding toward her. Chapter 4 "Yuck" What is left of Bella oozes on the asphalt. Chapter 5: "Edward" Edward: "Yummy!" Chapter 6: Epilogue A crowd gathers around Edward who has a telltale blood mustache. Edward: "What?" The end. Look for the sequel: Edward Has Some 'Splainin' to Do in bookstores this fall!
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Post by sapphire on Jul 5, 2008 16:05:06 GMT -5
This is invariably what happens when I am left to my own devices and must entertain myself. Amanda, I know getting a marriage proposal is a big thing, but...check in, will ya?
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Post by * amanda on Jul 6, 2008 22:07:40 GMT -5
ok its not just that, i have a million things going on and lots of ppl are mad cuz i can't do everything, ya know?!!!
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Post by Fins on Jul 10, 2008 12:01:44 GMT -5
I came across this on IMDB... Robert Patterson (Cedric Diggory in GOF) is playing Edward Cullen in the first movie in the Twilight series due out December 12th...
The Plot: In her new town of Forks, Washington, misfit teenager Bella Swan (Stewart) falls for her alluring and mysterious classmate, Edward Cullen (Pattinson). As it turns out, Edward belongs to a lineage of vampires, although he doesn't fit the typical vampire mold. As their passion reaches dizzying heights, can Edward resist his natural urges, and will he be able to defend Bella from his family members who have come for her?
THE BUZZ: Summit Entertainment is hoping to become a true Hollywood player with their adaptation of the wildly popular series of Twilight novels. We here at IMDb began to take notice of the movie earlier this year, when Kristen Stewart, Robert Pattinson, and a handful of their castmates took over our STARmeter chart -- well in advance of the clips that began to pop up online. It's always tricky to predict if Internet buzz will turn into box-office gold (or, in this case, crimson) but I will say this: Teenage girls are the target here, and if they can't get enough of the romantic melodrama, Gothic northwest landscapes, and shots of lost boys with toned abs, Twilight could trump some higher-profile holday movies, powered by repeat audiences. Author Stephenie Meyer is keeping a blog on the movie's progress, so you might want to bookmark it as your destination for all things vamp as the release date draws near.
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Post by sapphire on Jul 10, 2008 21:33:39 GMT -5
Holy cow, I almost snorted my tea when I saw Kevin had posted here! That was really nice of you, Kev. I hope you see the movie and it inspires you to check out the books. There is a lot to think about in them. Amanda, you sound totally stressed. Hope everything settles down for you, and, please know that I was joking. Deep breaths, girl! You have an amazing amount of wonderful things going on, but even good things can be stressful, expecially in such large doses. I will be out from Saturday to Sunday, week. Going to take care of my grandmother, who has severe dementia, so my aunt and her husband can have a break. Of course, this is when all things Twilight start heating up.
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Post by * amanda on Jul 11, 2008 10:14:38 GMT -5
haha I know you were joking, sapphi, and my post wasn't intended to come off so sharp - I was trying to joke, but I don't think it worked when I was extremely tired - since that post is a bit grating! And thanks, Kevin, for dropping by to keep this moving along for sapphi in my absence! By the way, regarding the movie... it apparently will be released 1 week after Harry Potter. There's already some buzz that it might beat HP in the box office. It should be interesting to see what happens. Also, sapphi, I just saw that Twilight is on the cover of Entertainment Weekly this week. It might inspire me to pick up a copy even though I haven't picked up a copy in years!
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Post by * amanda on Jul 11, 2008 10:22:27 GMT -5
It sounds like you have a difficult week coming up, Gayle. Your aunt and her husband must be really glad to have a break. Hang in there! (Bring a good book or two. ) I loved your re-enactment of the progression when reading Twilight. funny! OK, so here's the cover of EW: I got a kick out of how they highlighted that the series are the HOTTEST BOOKS SINCE HARRY POTTER. That Harry. He's going to be a marketing tool for many, many years to come. Hope he's getting a cut.
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