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Post by amandajg on Aug 9, 2008 0:03:32 GMT -5
Good lord, I hadn't read amazon til you mentioned it. I think it's either a case of sour grapes, way too high of expectations, psychopaths, or who knows what. I think the more famous you are, the more subject you are to criticism. I seem to recall DH received fairly steep criticism upon its release, and people calmed down a few months later. I feel very sad for Stephenie. I know how one bad comment can overshadow 100 good ones, so I hope she can rise above it and realise there are a ridiculous number of fans and people who genuinely loved the book. It disappoints me though. It's one thing to write a respectfully critical review, but amazon is allowing some pretty inappropriately harsh reviews to slip on there, I think. I just wrote a short, but very positive review on amazon...but its only one little happy note amongst the obnoxious slew of dissatisfied voices on there.
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Post by Cissa on Aug 9, 2008 20:43:40 GMT -5
Like you Sapphire, I am still digesting the book somewhat. I really don't know where to begin, but here goes.
Book One: I was really happy to see Edward and Bella get married early on. I was also happy that Jacob found a way to be there. I think he would have later regretted it if he hadn't come and it made Bella happy, at least until he started being a jerk. I loved the honeymoon. I think that Stephenie Meyer did a wonderful job writing it. I couldn't help but sympathize with Bella on that first night: not only has she never done this before, but the thought of being completely exposed next to someone that is so obviously "perfect" had to be intimidating. I know I would have been intimidated. I loved the way she handled it, sometimes, less is more. I did get a little pissed that Edward was so upset, but then that's Edward, always overreacting. It was funny the way he kept her so busy that he "thought" she couldn't possibly be interested in sex and the way she was always trying to seduce him. I have to admit that I was completely blown away when she found out she was pregnant though. We had all be misled into believing that it was impossible, so it was definitely a shock, a pleasant one though. I know that a lot of people have criticized Bella's immediate reaction to protect the baby, but I totally know where she was coming from. (I never wanted children, but when I found out I was pregnant with Caitlyn, it was all over. She immediately became everything to me and protecting her was my first priority.)
Book Two: I was a little hesitant when I saw that book two was from Jacob's point of view. I'm not going to lie; I am not a big Jacob fan (or at least I wasn't). In previous books, I always got so irritated with him for being a distraction for Bella. I guess I just wanted that happy ending for Bella and Edward (especially Edward) and it bugged me when he kept getting in the way. Of course I got aggravated with Bella too for not just letting him go. I felt like she was trying to have her cake and eat it too, so to speak. And then of course there was his manipulation of her in the forest and the whole kiss thing...oh how I hurt for Edward. But I digress; this is about Breaking Dawn. Anyway, it was interesting to get things from Jacob's point of view. The chapter names were great. I really don't think this part would have worked had it been narrated by anyone else. I agree with Amanda, Edward was in too much despair to have been an effective narrator, but we could still feel what his pain must have been like through Jacob. I did enjoy learning more about the whole werewolf mentality. I feel so sad for Leah though. I keep wondering what will become of her (she would be a good spin off character, I think). I really thought that maybe her and Jacob could get together considering their similar situations with unrequited love. I absolutely loved the interaction between Jacob and blondie, I mean Rosalie. LOL I almost died laughing when she brought his food in the mixing bowl she had bent to look like a dog food bowl with Fido written on it.
I have to agree that the blood drinking thing was a little strange, but I have to admit that when they were talking about the baby draining Bella, I kept thinking, “Why doesn’t anybody consider that the baby needs blood for nourishment. For goodness sakes, it’s half vampire!!!” The birth was quite dramatic and gory, but the reader definitely gets the impression that this is a very dire situation for Bella. I always had a sneaking suspicion, though, that Bella would be at death’s door when Edward changed her. I just always felt that he would have a hard time doing it unless it was absolutely necessary to save her life.
And then of course we come to Jacob’s imprinting on Renesmee. The first thing out of my mouth as I read this part was “NO WAY!!!” It was almost too much to comprehend. At first, I wondered if Stephenie Meyer had written it this way just so that Jacob could have his happy ending too, but later on I realized that it really was the only way that Renesmee could be spared. With Jacob’s imprinting on her, she now falls under the protection of the werewolves so they can’t kill her and they have to help protect her and the Cullen’s from the Volturi. I must commend Stephenie Meyer on one thing. I’ve read lots of Q&A’s with her and when she was asked the question of why did Quil imprint on Claire, who is a toddler, she always said that she just put that in there to show just how ridiculous imprinting was. She definitely did a good job of throwing us off the “scent” of what was to come in BD.
Book Three: I loved this part so much. I had contemplated often how she would be affected by the change and felt that the fact that Edward couldn’t read her mind had to come into play here. I know some people missed the old clumsy, self-deprecating Bella, but I loved seeing how much she enjoyed her new “self” and her new life with Edward. And she was more mature in this portion of the book, but then doesn’t marriage and motherhood do that to a person? The one thing I really wanted to see though was more interaction between Edward and Renesmee. He is capable of such intense love that I wanted to see him holding his daughter and interacting with her more. I know that from a literary point of view this is impossible. The book was written from Bella’s point of view so unless she witnessed it first hand it wouldn’t be in there. I did love the part where they are preparing for Charlie’s first visit and Edward is “talking” to Renesmee and he tells her that she must not bite Charlie, but yes, she can bite Jacob as much as she wants. LOL I also cried like a baby when he and Bella are preparing for Renesmee to leave with Jacob during the scene with the Volturi. It was so sweet and personal that I felt guilty for witnessing it.
I was also glad that there wasn’t a big gory battle scene. I will admit though that the Volturi scare the crap out of me. The way they had Irina executed with out batting an eyelash was so cold and cruel. The whole battle/negotiation scene made me anxious. I just knew that at any minute they were going to unleash the guard on them. I do have a soft spot for Marcus though, he seems so sad and pitiful and it’s makes me think that that’s how Edward would be if anything were to happen to Bella.
Finally, I was glad that everybody got their happy ending…Edward and Bella together forever, Jacob and Renesmee (in 6 ½ years), Bella gets to have a relationship with her father and now he has Sue in his life so he’s not alone. I have to admit I am a sucker for a happy ending and this one was just perfect.
I do have one question though and it may be in the book. I may just have been too exhausted when I read it to remember, but was there any mention of Renee near the end? I wonder how Bella will continue to deal or not deal with her mother.
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Post by * amanda on Aug 10, 2008 16:39:10 GMT -5
Hello again! A note on the nasty comments about BD... I have a feeling more people than not enjoyed BD. I am sad that Stephenie is responding to the negativity (see: www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1592457/story.jhtml) because I think she'd be better off forcing herself to ignore it. It's one thing to lightly criticise a book, it's another to hack fan websites and trash-talk fans (one of the largest was completely erased just after the book's release, others were spammed, etc.) if you didn't like the book. These are people just starving for attention and who get a rush out of putting others down, although personally I'm amazed at how many individuals there are out there who do that. Meanwhile, I have run across some criticism of the books that bring interesting points. But what perplexes me is the level of seriousness that some "fans" took the books. Meyer has never claimed that there is a "lesson" in these books and she has said she merely wants to write an "entertaining" story (reminds me of many great authors who had the same goal; Thackeray's Vanity Fair, for example). I thoroughly enjoyed every page of the book just as much, if not more, as Twi/NM/Ecl. I admire that she had the guts to write the story SHE wanted to tell, not what she thought her fans might want to hear. There are MORE than enough books out there that are conceived and written by publishing houses' marketing teams (see: Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, basically all Vampire books that have sprung up in the past 1-2 years, etc.) I see a woman's personality in the Twilight books, not a marketing powerhouse's idea of what a story should be. I also find it amusing that people say Bella didn't sacrifice anything (i.e. Harry Potter-style) to get what she wanted/a happy ending. Um... she changed species and put every single one of her friends and family members in danger. Enough said. I also liked Meyer's "battle of wits" rather than cinematic-style dueling. I tend to avoid action-adventure movies because I find big battle scenes, where friends die, etc., so cliched and overdone now. Yes it was appropriate for Harry Potter; but is that what we really want to see all of the time? Not me. The change in Bella's level of maturity also made perfect sense to me. When Bella found out she was pregnant, it reminded me of a moment in my favourite TV show, "Gilmore Girls." Lorelai's mother accuses her of being immature and never growing up. Lorelai counters, "I grew up the moment that pregnancy test turned blue [or something like that]." Having a child (especially with your Vampire husband, I imagine) changes you. Bella's transformation makes perfect sense. Anyways, I know everyone had glowing reviews on here but the nonsensical bashing "out there" has really been bugging me lately. I'll leave it at that.
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Post by sapphire on Aug 10, 2008 16:55:09 GMT -5
So glad you survived Amanda. Exposing myself to those awful comments almost made me physically ill. Hopefully, with the Pattinson effect working, those slimeballs will soon slink back under their rocks so that the rest of us can go on loving the story in peace. Would you please send me the link to Stephenie's myspace page? I agree that she needs to step away from all this ugliness and let it go away, like a sulfurous cloud of noxious gas.
Lisa, I think we all read the same story and had the same reactions. I am trying to find the spot in the book where Bella speaks about how her mother and she are growing distant, and how Bella feels that is for the best. Must say that disturbed me very much, having lost my mother, but I do understand how it happens in families. My father has distanced himself quite a bit from us since my mother's death, and I think he had to in order to keep going. I will say that I don't believe in keeping secrets from our loved ones because we are afraid they won't be able to handle them. Everyone deserves the chance to prove their strength.
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Post by * amanda on Aug 10, 2008 17:23:27 GMT -5
Now back to OUR discussions!
Cissa, I loved this comment: "I wondered if Stephenie Meyer had written it this way just so that Jacob could have his happy ending too, but later on I realized that it really was the only way that Renesmee could be spared. With Jacob’s imprinting on her, she now falls under the protection of the werewolves so they can’t kill her and they have to help protect her and the Cullen’s from the Volturi."
WOW! I didn't think of that. You're very right, though. an added level of security for Nessie, plus a guarantee that the pack would never turn against her.
The one thing I did guess about the 4th book before it was released was that I guessed Jacob would become Alpha. I figured it would take a dramatic moment, and a reason to save Bella, for him to decide to change status. There was some very subtle foreshadowing for book 4 throughout the entire series, especially in NM and Ecl. (Which is another reason I'm surprised at all of the harsh fan reaction... SM did set the stage for many of the events in BD in other books!)
OK, on to something I've anxiously been awaiting discussion on. Would your father accept the "don't ask don't tell" story from you like Charlie accepted it from Bella? I've been puzzling over that one. On the one hand, Steph set Charlie up as the type of person who didn't want to know too much about his girl and her "girly" issues (like most dads could probably relate to), but on the other hand he was a very protective guy. I found it a little... hard to believe that he wouldn't want to know more about Bella, if nothing else to make sure she was ok in light of such an intense physical transformation. Not to mention, I'm surprised he didn't have a heart attack when Jake transformed in front of his eyes.
I did find it more realistic that he'd be able to withstand the change by having the support of Billy Black and Sue who were in tune to the fantasy world (or was Sue??? I forget...), who could gently support him without giving him too much info.
What do you think?
As for Renee, I wonder how that relationship was handled. How could Charlie not say much to Renee... and she would be the one to notice some major changes with Bella. She would also want to know what's going on. I know my mom would demand to know everything, whereas I can see where my dad would be able to be more like Charlie and not question it too terribly much. That facet of the story wasn't explored (although it also wasn't central to the plot).
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Post by * amanda on Aug 10, 2008 17:34:08 GMT -5
I am trying to find the spot in the book where Bella speaks about how her mother and she are growing distant, and how Bella feels that is for the best. Must say that disturbed me very much, having lost my mother, but I do understand how it happens in families. My father has distanced himself quite a bit from us since my mother's death, and I think he had to in order to keep going. I will say that I don't agree in keeping secrets from our loved ones because we are afraid they won't be able to handle them. Everyone deserves the chance to prove their strength. I need to reread; that part didn't stand out in my first read-thru. I "survived" but only because I didn't take the comments too seriously. I was egging them on slightly at first but I didn't anticipate the disproportionate level of venom shot back at me, and the personal attacks even when my comments turned more serious. I find it faintly amusing that people who hated a book and its followers so much hang around the books' amazon page and get a thrill out of lashing out at the people they apparently despise. Get a life. I'm glad you didn't get involved; one thing I learned it wasn't worth my time and certainly isn't worth anyone else's, either. I do feel a bit sick for Stephenie. I am sad that she has had to face such nastiness just for putting herself out there.
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Post by * amanda on Aug 10, 2008 17:47:43 GMT -5
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Post by Cissa on Aug 11, 2008 20:00:17 GMT -5
Hey I was just on IMDB and they have a listing for New Moon to be released in 2010!!! ;D YEAH
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Post by Brian Newman on Aug 14, 2008 10:02:58 GMT -5
HELLO Twilighter Mugwumps.... Well I finished the twilight saga...Whew!!! It WAS really good. (**Cough fins**)<-hey that's kind of a pun....(coffins) cool.. As a 30+++++ year old guy, it is kind of hard to navigate through the turbulent terrain of a teenage girl mind. But all of that aside, it was a great tale of a girl who meets her prince bloodsucker, losses bloodsucker, meets her other knight in shining fur, saves prince bloodsucker from king leeches, re-battles evil parasites, marries prince Bloodsucker, gives birth to awesome half vamp/ half human wonder-angel, nearly dies, becomes awesome Princess Bloodsucker, unites mythical enemies to face unbeatable foes, and lives (in a manner of speaking...) happily ever after.... I mean, what more can you ask for??? Saving the entire wizarding world? well there is always a chance a a 2nd Twilight series... Seriously Fins, go read these books.... wease
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Post by Brian Newman on Aug 14, 2008 13:23:09 GMT -5
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Post by * amanda on Aug 14, 2008 20:07:18 GMT -5
Hey Brian! Glad that you read Twilight - it's great to have a male perspective on the books! And I'm also glad to hear that the "magic" wasn't lost... I was a little afraid when I heard you were reading it because I wondered if you would react like, "wow, those are really silly girl books" (due to the girly emotional parts). I recently recommended the series to a sci-fi/fantasy-loving friend, who happens to be male. I sort of regretted it until I heard you were reading it, and now that you say you enjoyed them I feel much better about giving the recommendation to him. Meanwhile, I've told my fiance about them and he is pretty much not interested in the story. Unfortunately I can't get that guy interested in literature. He loved acting in Shakespearean plays in high school and likes reading about math, science, and politics... but can't get that guy into lit books. Of course, I may have turned him off by telling him a wee to much about Edward. Not a good idea. I probably made him sound like the perfect guy. He seemed especially worried when I told him Edward had a couple of PhDs. But in reality, I prefer non-rock hard guys who aren't overly protective and have a more varied diet than blood (though I suppose it would make mealtime simpler.) So, we've talked a bit about what we loved about Breaking Dawn. I have decided I have a few qualms about it. Is there anything you didn't like about BD (or the series, for that matter)?
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Post by sapphire on Aug 14, 2008 22:01:09 GMT -5
How fantastic, Brian! So glad to hear you loved the books, and your synopsis was both hysterical and, well...more hysterical! I have to admit that I almost didn't read the books. Although Amanda's recommendation meant a lot, when I read the blurb on the back of Twilight, it didn't appeal to me at all. Also, I have such a love of Harry that I am a bit protective of him and didn't want any other book to get my attention. However, in a moment of weakness, I picked the book up and started reading, thank heavens. The amazing thing is, I have been able to convince three other people to try this book, and all of them are so hooked that I feel a bit guilty. Two of them won't even read Harry, for Pete's sake! And, the most surprising part is, one of them is Cathy, and Cathy just hates to read! She has ADD and hasn't the time or patience required, but this Tuesday for girl's night, I drove and she sat reading--never uttered a WORD--which is unbelievable if you know Cathy! She is already on New Moon. I am astounded. I have a side note concerning Muse. I recently bought my first Muse CD, "HAARP", which is a live concert cover. I noticed that there were two disks in it, but I was enjoying the first one too much to realize until today that the second one is a DVD of the concert. WOW! Speechless--me? That lead guy is beyond talented, gifted,etc. If you get a chance, and falsetto singing doesn't totally freak you out, have a look at it. (Just lost the guys, I know. ) Amanda, after that totally unpleasant evening of intense negativity from those idiots posting on Amazon.com, it's hard for me to criticize anything about the books. I had mentioned a couple of things earlier, but after that, I was so sorry I even brought them up here. However, I was a little creeped out by the imprinting on little girls thing. I know she tried to make it okay, but....Still think Jacob could have been left with some loose ends dangling. When I thought Eclipse was the last book, and he was brokenhearted and running, I thought it was quite powerful and sad. She could have left him there and I would have been ok with it. I do see, now, thanks to Cissa, that it was necessary--great point. I don't have any other complaints. Breaking Dawn was everything I hoped it would be. How often does that happen? Not only was I satisfied, I was thrilled for everyone. I also think that Stephenie may come to realize that there is still at least one more book dying to be written, and I don't mean Jacob and Nessie. To REALLY end this saga, she needs to finish off the Volturi. It made my blood run cold when Carlisle (I think) said that they would probably try to pick off his bunch individually. I don't remember if I said it here or in a conversation, but I see Carlisle as a true leader of vampires. The Volturi's day is done, and I want them gone. Another thing I have been processing, as I reread the series, is that it seems obvious to me now that Bella was always meant to be a vampire, as she says in Breaking Dawn. I wondered if Stephenie had some purpose in making her not fit in, with her weird dreams, etc. I am so thankful we got to see her in her rightful role so early in the book.
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Post by Brian Newman on Aug 15, 2008 6:56:17 GMT -5
Well I was a little worried about the girlie stuff too at first. But, I really like this world. All the characters had great depth to them.
One huge advantage I had in reading this series over other "Die Hard" fans was being able to read book 1-4 straight through. Like Harry Potter, I view these four books as ONE story. That is the only reason that I can find why any true fan could have any problem with these books. The fact that they had time between books to "write" their own stories as to what would happen next. Then when the books went another way they didn't like it. I mean, get a life people. Write your own stories and let Stephenie Meyer tell the story SHE wants to write.
I personally had no problem with the imprinting on the young kids. If anything these books are about deep, unconditional, self-sacrificing love. She made it perfectly clear that, if by some chance the "imprintee" wanted to just be friends that the "imprintor" would be that to that person. The "imprintor" is whatever the other needs.
There is too much I like about these books to list it all right now. But suffice it to say, they are really good books. The only problem is I'm not a typical male.....just ask Lisa. So don't take what I say as a good judge of the male perspective....LOL
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Post by Brian Newman on Aug 15, 2008 7:03:21 GMT -5
Amanda, tell the fiance that he needs to get through these books because: A.) they are good books. B.) it would give him a good perspective into the female mind. C.) even though that perspective will be WAAAAY foreign to him, it will let him know what women really would like us men to be like.... D.) and lastly, do it 'cause you said so......
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Post by * amanda on Aug 15, 2008 12:59:01 GMT -5
LOL, I don't think he'll read them. Like me he's stubborn. We'll end up in a deadlock. I do, however, have a feeling he'll go to the movie with me - and enjoy it.
I felt like it was nice to read books 1-3 all together. I put them down for a few months and re-read them late last winter and enjoyed them all just as much as I did the first time around. Having the 4th one come out this summer was a bit of a wait, but well-worth it.
I am astounded why people reacted so negatively to the 4th. To me, it seemed so similar to books 1-3 (in style - not the storyline necessarily - but I also didn't find the storyline to be "way out there"), I don't know why it would come to be a shock to any actual fan who knew what they were looking for.
With that said, I have a couple of very minor complaints. 1) The gore in the 4th book still turns my stomach a bit. Okay, in all fairness Eclipse did have its gory moments - vampires being ripped apart wasn't a walk in the park. But when Edward started basically operating on Bella with his teeth, it really turned me off. Couldn't he have done anything else?! Bella drinking blood bothered me, but only to an extent because it made more sense in the context of the story, she needed to do something to get nutrition to that baby. 2) The J Jenks subplot. It was interesting to see how vampire-Bella could integrate with the world again after her transformation, and was maybe even a comment on how beautiful women are treated vs. plain ones. But it seemed a bit too tangent-y. Still, minor complaint. 3) Werewolves are actually shape-shifters. I kind of liked Stephenie's interpretation of a werewolf. she spent three books telling us how they're so not like the Hollywood version, just to let us know that actually they aren't werewolves at all. Unless she intends on introducing us to the real werewolves in a sequel, I'm not sure how this was relevant.
Other complaints that I don't have that others have are 1) imprinting on a baby. I guess I'm a bit weird... although I certainly don't want to defend pedophiles here... but I don't find that too odd. I think it's because Stephenie prepared us for it with Seth imprinting on an infant in Eclipse. I also think there's a difference between the love he has for Nessie now vs. the love he'll have for her in the future. Now, he's a protector, a friend, a caregiver, who truly loves her but in a more platonic way. In the future at some point, I assume when she hits an appropriate age, that love will shift to romance. There's a difference and I think that difference is defined when the object of the imprint grows up.
A lot of people have been complaining about Bella's change by the 3rd part of the book, which I find kind of funny. The point of that part of the book is to show she DID change. You can't go through a major change like that in your life without really changing how you think, behave, etc.
I have seen some complaints about the lack of romantic tension between Edward and Bella in this book. I think it was a given that would happen. The question of will they be able to stay together is finally settled, and the characters get what they want. Suddenly, an audience loses interest because some of that suspense and tension is lost. Kind of like when the main characters in sitcoms get married. That part of the story is resolved.
One criticism that really bothers me is the fact that Bella didn't make any sacrifices to get what she wanted. WHOA - she gave up a normal human life! She can't ever have a normal, open relationship with her parents like she did before. She also can't have "normal" children, and she had to accept that she might die for her daughter, never to see or enjoy her again. To me, that would be a huge sacrifice and loss.
I could go on and on with what I liked - but basically, I felt this book really was a beautiful cap-off to this series. It's everything I expected and hoped for. I agree w/ sapphire, I think Stephenie needs to revisit the Volturi in the future and the Cullens need to secure their future as well. The only problem is that Carlisle isn't power-hungry, so the struggle would be a little one-sided. I think that Carlisle will have to find something he's passionate about that the Volturi are against him on and that will be what ignites a struggle.
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Post by * amanda on Aug 16, 2008 16:02:10 GMT -5
Did I scare anyone off? I DID LOVE THE BOOK!
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Post by Brian Newman on Aug 16, 2008 20:43:28 GMT -5
"I Ain't Skeered" So reading these books again is "Re-vamped" is it?.... Well I will be re-vamping via audiobooks....not as good but safer while driving.
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Post by Cissa on Aug 23, 2008 18:40:02 GMT -5
Things are quiet over here aren't they??? I just thought I would check in so you wouldn't think I had died or anything. ;D Well I've got two more friends hooked on Twilight, but I still can't get Caitlyn to read it yet. I will NOT give up. I hope everyone is doing well and I hope to catch you on MSN sometime.
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Post by sapphire on Aug 23, 2008 19:48:51 GMT -5
Cissa, it's just that I can't stop reading these darned books! Last night I polished off Eclipse again and stayed up til 3 am with BD. I don't feel comfortable leaving Edward in misery, so I have to at least read until Bella is changed. I love that part. The funny thing is, I can't seem to bring myself to reread that whole section about the big confrontation with the Volturi. Not sure why they scare me so much. Talk about feelings of dread! One of my favorite descriptions from Bella after she reawakens is her view of Carlisle--as if she is looking at the sun. That's exactly how I imagine him. What a fantastic character. I wonder how it makes him feel when Rosalie talks about everything she misses, being a vampire. Does she blame him, or is she at all glad to have at least some kind of existence? I am still so grateful to Jacob for smacking that dog dish into her head, even if it just irritated her slightly. ;D
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Post by sapphire on Aug 23, 2008 20:03:04 GMT -5
I was watching the MTV Twilight Tuesday interview with Jackson Rathbone, who plays Jasper in the movie, and he said he is signed up for "all 3 movies"! This certainly sounds like Summit must have sealed the deal for the whole series. Interesting young man, that one. Interesting character, too. I wonder if they would use the same actors for Bella, Jacob and Edward, as they must not age much any more, and it's kind of hard to do that in real life. Rob is already about 22, isn't he? Actually, I read somewhere that they would have to change to another actor for Jacob after his growth spurts, and that makes me sad, because I think Taylor Lautner is just darling and seems to be emitting Jacob's sunny personality whenever he shows up somewhere.
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