Election 2008 and other current Muggle issues

[* amanda]

Let's jump on over to this thread as not to upset/alienate/etc. anyone on the main thread who don't like to mix their dose of HP with a dose of Muggle political reality.

I'll start with Election 2008. To those who want to share: what is the most important issue to you this year? (We all know each other pretty well nowadays and so feel free to post without risk of judgement... and if you feel like judging others, well, find a nice Rush Limbaugh and/or Democracy Now website if you'd like, but this isn't the place for you...). And to those who want to share further (and please don't feel like you HAVE to on here even if you do voice your concerns about the issues, as voting is a private issue, really), who are you voting for this year? (Or in our non-American Mugwumps' case, who would you vote for?)

Like I posted on the other page, I am fairly disgruntled with the candidates and their minions this year. We have Obama, who I feel "rock starred" his way to the top, riding on very little substance. He can't change Washington politics and it's naive to think anyone can in 4 or 8 years. The point of politics IS to work the system and network like crazy to accomplish the things you, and hopefully your constituents, want you to do. Obama also lacks in foreign policy experience. Most of all, however, I feel he's run his campaign like a bit of a cult: full of rhetoric and using the naivite of disgruntled American voters to ride to the top.

His running mate Biden probably does know how to work the system a bit better, but his personality irks me. He loves to hear his own voice. I think he likes politics a little too much and is too caught up in it to keep a clear mind and focus. I also was bothered by his constant reference to Jesus in his convention speech. It's great it you're a proud Christian, but keep it out of politics; I don't want to hear about it there.

McCain is clearly the more experienced and, in my opinion, competent of the two. He knows how to work Washington and I think he can figure out how to get things done. The McCain of 4-8 years ago; openminded, progressive, a global thinker I would have not had a problem voting. Unfortunately, however, McCain has shed his own ideology for a Bush Part Three Ideology. He's playing lapdog to the Bush dynasty. He's a fierce advocate of war, which is simply perplexing to me considering his background. He has made some terrifying statements regarding Iran. He has mentioned he'd consider the draft. He supports Bush's initiatives to equate birth control to abortion and is a staunch anti-choice advocate. Such a pro-war, anti-female (women's rights to make their own life and health choices and their doctors' ability to support them) views are absolutely unforgivable in my book.

I won't even start on Palin. First of all, it's laughable that McCain thinks so little of American women that he believes he can merely toss in a female Veep candidate and expect all of those Undecided Hillary Women (me) to flock to the polls and vote for him. Secondly, she advocates things in her personal life that, while such choices should not, normally, affect my interest in voting for her, they have, because I know from her life views vs. mine that I do not want this woman representing me. Although, as a side note, she does have my deepest sympathies for the fact that news sources such as CNN and MSNBC have been running objectifying, demeaning stories about her style and fashion, and radio hosts (even in Canada) cannot get over her "hotness"; objectifying her rather than treating her as seriously as they would treat a male VP candidate.

So what now? I am not happy with either candidate. I cannot imagine why Americans chose Obama over Hillary. Yes, Obama is pretty and smart and nice and promises that the world will be happy and awesome when he's president, but what no one seemed to care about, during the primaries, was the fact that he CANNOT POSSIBLY BEAT THE GOP/MCCAIN/PALIN MACHINE. Hillary could have absolutely STOMPED all over them and celebrated a victory for the Dems in November.

That's simply not going to happen anymore.

McCain has this... just wait and see.

I don't really think it matters who I vote for, anyways. I might just write in Hillary's name for fun. At least that way my vote will still go to the candidate who I feel most deserves the win.

[Fins]

I agree with everything you said. However, I would add that just because one of these candidates are for or against something doesn't mean it will translate into legislation. I am totally against abortion but am pro choice... I agree its up to the individual to make that call. I doubt any of these candidates could get Roe v. Wade overturned regardless of whether they are for or against.

Which sort of brings me to my next point. All this rhetoric that both sides are blabbering... is meaningless. The real trick in today's politics is, like you said, their ability to work the system. Its the difference between what you want and what you actually get when all the compromises (and sadly enough- the special interest groups) are taken into consideration. Which candidate can work well with Congress. It is never cut and dry. I would like to see more laws governing this process. It boggles my mind how legislation can get tied up in the process on purpose where it never even goes to a vote. There is something terribly wrong with the process. If you don't want it, vote no. If you do vote yes.

I hate the fact that most of the reps in Congress just vote on party lines. ALL Republican ideas can't be bad... and ALL Democrat ideas can't be bad. And it should never come down to "I'll vote for your legislation if you vote for mine." Its no wonder we are in the mess we are in.

I seriously doubt McCain or Obama will dent any of these 'Ivory Tower' processes. Its going to be business as usual.

My biggest issue this election is a long term energy policy with emphasis of getting off oil... permanently. I realize there is no easy substitute but it needs to be done. Drilling for more oil will only increase our dependency on it and make it harder in the long run. And anyone thinking that by increasing our output will decrease the price is fooling themselves.

Enough ranting. I will probably end up voting for McCain but only because of experience. Not sure that is a good reason but there are things I like and don't like about each candidate.

[Richard]

I love politics, LOL.

I have been watching lots of interviews and commentaries lately, and there's one specific issue where McCain, in my opinion, makes a far better impression than Obama. That subject is the same as Fins mentioned: oil. The Western World (especially the US) should sever ties with OPEC ASAP! I can't think of any OPEC country that really has the interest of the West at heart, or is as democratic / free as the West. Most of those countries have fundamental problems with our way of living, yet are very happy to get our $$$ and use it against us. From what I've learned, McCain has a very specific plan on how to get independent from foreign oil (nuclear power, more drilling, innovative techniques). Obama has not. He just said he was going to spend a lot of dollars on reducing the dependency on foreign oil, but he hasn't said what he's gonna do with that money. And I seem to get the impression that that is true for most of Obama's policies. He keeps on mentioning spending money to get somewhere, but he hasn't got any specific details.

As to the War on Terror. I really agree with Palin's remarks on that. Victory is in sight, yet Obama wants to forfeit. I mean, come on. As to Palin herself, unlike you Amanda, I really like her. That woman has had some tough criticism (anyone see Matt Damon's comments on her today, those were extremely offensive), and I really think she's coping very well. I do understand the difference in your view and her view, of course, but I don't buy the fact that she's just the VP candidate because of her gender. I really think she is a very intriguing person, and really think she would be good as VP once elected.

Then there's Biden. I don't like him. He keeps on pointing out his Catholic faith. Well, I'm Catholic too, but I really don't identify with him, especially on the abortion issue. On the one hand, he's all about being Catholic, on the other he wants to murder unborn life. Those don't mix, in my opinion.

OK, this was just a small portion of my thoughts on the election, but I can't type it all out. I'll definitely continue to follow the campaigns closely, and if I could vote, McCain would definitely get mine.

Richard

[paulis1]

Its funny how everyone has their own ideas, perspectives and philosophies about the election process and who, and who should not, rise to power. From my perspective, philosophy of life plays a much larger role in the whole political debate.

While there are many people who differ on the issues, the reason why we have a two party system is because we choose to have this two party system. The founding fathers wanted it to be different. I can't recall if it was Jefferson, or someone else, who abhored the whole two party thing. They had hoped the U.S. would not fall into two parties because they had seen what it had done to the Parliment in England. Sometime in the past, two parties were hit upon and now that is what we are left with. So, what do you do? The system could be changed, if enough of us wanted it badly enough, but it would require massive effort to overcome the apathy standing in the way - and there would be massive resistance from the old system, which would not die easily.

The truth of the matter is I wasn't very interested at all in this election until recently. I could never find myself interested in voting for Obama. I still don't think we really know much about the man. From what I see, he's a chameleon and I don't trust what I believe to be his empty message of change. Change?? Change meaning what? It's like that movie where the old gardener becomes President by spouting off all sorts of empty cliches and words that seemed to mean something but were never explained. As to McCain, I wasn't all that interested in him because, from my perspective, he was a RINO. And, given some of the things he had been a part of in the Senate, I was pretty disgusted by him. I was only going to vote for him because I couldn't stand the idea that by my lack (and others like myself) of participation we might hand Obama the election by simply staying away from the polls.

I wasn't interested in the whole election at all until McCain brought Sarah Palin forward. And for the first time, I said to myself, "You know, now I think I can see myself vote for McCain." Now I know that there are some here who won't appreciate this sentiment. But I am really excited about Mrs. Palin. And, there are a whole lot of people out there just like me that feel the same. It was kind of a dirty trick that McCain did to spring Palin out there the day after Obama accepted the nomination because it seemed to make his bounce fall flat. And, although I know that there are people out there that feel that McCain only brought Mrs. Palin out as his running mate because he wanted to pick up the women's vote, but I don't agree. Sure, there will be some (very few) who would be swayed that way, but most of the people who would have voted for Hillary aren't going to be turned to a conservative woman because she is a woman. To argue that is to completely underestimate the Hillary voters. And, it completely misses the point. The reason why the Republican base has become energized has little to do with Mrs. Palin being a woman. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that she is a CONSERVATIVE. Given McCain's past history of "reaching across the aisles," most conservative Republicans were deeply concerned about what McCain was going to do with the party. Was he going to move the party further to the political and social left? Or, will he keep it on the political and social right? This is a deeply felt concern that many conservatives were/are worried about. Then, McCain goes and picks a running mate that IS conservative and the base says, "YES!" From our perspective - those of us that care about this issue - this was not only a Home Run, it was a Grand Slam out of the park. So, yes, there are a lot of people come November - including the (abhorent/shudder) religious right - who will be pulling the lever for McCain.

Who will win? Who knows. I guess we will find out in November together.

[* amanda]

I just want to say I enjoyed reading your thoughts last month! I actually found myself agreeing, for the most part, with all of you - which may seem strange, but it is true. I think each candidate and his party has some pros and definitely some cons, too. (Um... no pun intended.)

I mailed my absentee ballot last week with a vote for Obama. Yes, he is young, naive, and somewhat inexperienced... but quite frankly, so was Bill Clinton. (I know, I'm quite the Obama fanatic.)

However, I trust that his background and experiences will have adequately prepared him enough to lead the country. I find that his multi-cultural, multi-national personal background must have ultimately shaped a well-rounded, well-versed man who is aware of the world around him and the impact that the president will have on that world. His experiences as a black male at Harvard and work in the harsh burbs of Chicago and ultimate rise to the Senate at a relatively young age must have certainly been character-building and eye-opening experiences, and because of those I trust he is a man who can not only unite the different demographics of the U.S. but also be an effective and impressive ambassador to the world. As an American abroad, this is, essentially, my biggest issue of personal interest in this election simply because an effective American ambassador who can work cooperatively with Canadians and the international community as a whole will have the most impact on my own life.

My 2nd biggest issue is Iraq, and quite frankly, Obama has said he will get the troops out of Iraq and I hope he will keep his word. I want to see Iraq over with. I absolutely never want us to get into worse or more conflicts. I feel McCain is too impulsive and gung-ho with regards to the military and therefore too liable to dig us into a deeper hole. Obama, I hope/trust, will put more effort into diplomacy (see previous paragraph).

Finally, I am concerned about the environment and our dependence on oil. Quite frankly, Paris Hilton had the most sensible solution on this out of any of the candidates. Alas, she is not running for prez. So I ruled out McCain and Palin because they were the "worst of the two evils" in my opinion with regards to their energy plan.

Note the economy doesn't really make the cut of my top three issues. Yes, we're in a bad place with the economy. But I honestly don't feel that the one man who is the president has a LOT of impact on the economy. On top of that, neither candidate has a good solution.

They also, unfortunately, don't have a good solution for health care, which is a shame, since I felt Hil had a good one.

And finally, a bit of me still regrets that Hillary didn't make it past the primaries. If she did, by the way, I think she would have blown the formidable McCain-Palin group out of the water. Obama, meanwhile, headed straight on over to her advisors. Um... well. I guess if Obama is using some of her people, anyways, that's....well...something in my book.

How do you feel, less than 1 month away from the election?

[* amanda]

By the way, I forgot to mention my thoughts on Palin lately. I still cringe at most of what she says. But I do admire her personality. She is strong, she is a master at communicating and connecting with average American folks, she's refreshing, energetic, charismatic, seems honest and genuine, and quite frankly, beautiful on TV - all excellent personality and character traits of an effective and pleasing president.

Too bad I absolutely disagree with most of what she says.

[Richard]

Amanda, interesting arguments. I don't agree with your thoughts on the war, but hey, that doesn't matter. Furthermore, I think America's president should be voted to deal with America's issues, not with international issues. There's no way anyone can accomplish that, so one can better direct their efforts on their own country.

Oct 7, 2008 21:16:41 GMT -5 * amanda said:

Note the economy doesn't really make the cut of my top three issues. Yes, we're in a bad place with the economy. But I honestly don't feel that the one man who is the president has a LOT of impact on the economy. On top of that, neither candidate has a good solution.

I agree that the President hasn't got that much influence on the economy. The economy is cyclical, it's influenced by a huge amount of factors and government is just of them. With that in mind though, I was really pleased by McCain's announcement during last night's 'debate' that he would buy bad mortgages from Americans in question. It was about time someone would do that! The entire credit crunch is caused by bad mortgages, yet the current bail-out plan doesn't solve them, as it is trying to safe banks. Even when doing that, the bad mortgage problem and, related to that, the bad housing market, remains there. So, lot's of points for McCain for that plan!

Then there's energy. I didn't think I'd ever say it, but I agree with Paris Hilton (like Amanda). A combination of off-shore drilling and investing in innovative technologies might do the trick, but I really think nuclear power should also play a role.

As to personalities, I'm very confused about Obama these days. His ties with questionable persons (like the Ayers guy) and his involvement in the Acorn scam, really make me question his integrity, particularly in combination with his remarks about average Americans clinging to religion and guns when he isn't speaking publicly. Someone who is supposed to be religious himself, should really know better than to talk like that. I can't find anything against McCain when it comes to the integrity issue.

As to Palin, I really admire her as well. She got so much criticism and the dems/liberal media have tried to make her a laughingstock. By doing so, they indirectly do the same to millions of Americans who totally identify with her. And I think she has great principles and ideas for the US.

Besides the above, I really hope my future wife will look like that after giving birth to 5 kids!

Sorry for that last bit, just couldn't stop myself. Now, I'm gonna find myself a nice bagel for breakfast...

Richard

[sjr0301]

Okay, I can't resist and of course, I hope no one takes offense.

I will preface this by saying that I voted for McCain in the 2000 primary and that I am disgusted by his abandonment of his principles in his quest to obtain the approval of the worst elements of the Republican Party. I have also voted for Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole.

For me, the most important issue is the restoration of American civil liberties, which have been all but voided by the Patriot Act and other misguided legislation supposedly meant to aid in the war on terror. (It should be noted that no one felt the need to abandon the basic requirement for a warrant prior to searches, seizures and arrests or the basid rule of habeas corpus even during the Cold War, when the likelihood that the Soviet Union might actually attack us with nuclear weapons was substantial)

I will vote for Obama because he has the intelligence, temperament and judgment to lead America out of its current disaster. The Republican Party has utterly abandoned its core principles and has pandered to the worst fears and prejudices of the ignorant, all in the putative name of liberty. Under Bush and the Republicans, our civil liberties have been gutted, our economy has been destroyed by deregulation, our soldiers slaughtered in the unjustified war on Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11 and never had WMDs), and our reputation as a nation has been trashed. Osama Bin Laden is still free, the Taliban are resurgent in Afganistan and any peace in the Middle East is further away than ever. In fact, in dismantling Iraq, Bush actually destablized the region and created the opportunity for Iran to gain power. As for the concept of "victory" -- the McCain suggestion that Obama will wave "the white flag of surrender" is absurd. Putting aside whether we should have been there in the first place, the fact is that America "won" the Iraq War. It successfully invaded, overthrew the government of Saddam Hussein, dispersed the Iraqi Army, occupied the country, and set up a new government. America is currently occupying Iraq after winning the war. There is, and can be, no shame in withdrawing now, after almost 5 years of occupation, and there is no surrender involved in turning over the country back to its own people. More importantly, over 100,000 troops could be redeployed to finally do the necessary job in Afghanistan.

As for Palin, it should be irrelevant that she is a woman, how many children she has, what her religion is, or how good looking and charming she may be. What is relevant is that she doesn't have enough of a grasp of the American Cosntitution to understand what branch of government the Vice President is in or what powers the Vice President has. (To be clear - the Vice President is in the Executive Branch and the job is found in the same Article of the Constitution as the President, and not as Congress. The job of the Vice President is purely ministerial - to preside over the Senate, and only to vote when there is a 50-50 tie. Other than that, the Vice President (legally) actually has less power than the Majority Leader and is chiefly there as a successor to the President in the event the President dies or has to resign). What is also relevant is the fact that she abused her power as Governor to force the firing of her ex-brother in law for personal reasons and that she billed the government of Alaska for non-reimbursable personal expenses. Frankly, it boggles the mind that McCain chose Palin when he might have chosen any number of more knowledgable and qualified Republican women (or men) including Elizabeth Dole, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Condoleeza Rice or Susan Collins. This would be much less of concern if it were not for the fact that McCain is 72 years old and has suffered recurrent bouts of malignant melanoma, so that the odds of Palin actually becoming President would be significant if McCain is elected.

As for energy issues, I prefer a candidate who at least recognizes that a complete energy program is not only about reducing our dependence on foreign oil, but is also about developing energy sources that will reduce man's impact on the evironment and slow down the deadly progress of global warming.

Okay, enough of this rant!! Got to get back to work.

[phoenix73]

Agree with SJR just about 100%.

I can't respect the way McCain has pandered himself and relinquished any claim to "maverickiness." I can't respect palin for thinking she'll increase the power of the VP more than dick cheney has already, and for not knowing what job, exactly, she signed up for. She may have spirit, drive, conviction, ambition, accumen, but she is severely lacking in judgement on the environment, foreign policy and speaks to one audience only. There is no respect for difference of opinion, only ridicule. Her willingness to promote baseless, divisive attacks and to not outright condemn chants of "kill him" sickens me to the core.

I am DYING to have an intellect in office again. Bring me someone I can be proud to show the world, and someone who I feel weighs our numerous issues with sincerity and profound deliberation. Bring me someone with a sense of humility and purpose. Bring me someone who had the GOOD judgement to know what his weaknesses are and select a running mate with significant foreign policy experience, with working class roots, who has seen hard times and persevered just as many of us strive to in every day life. Joe Biden, you had me at "hello" in the VP debate. Seriously. John McCain knew what his weaknesses were, and rather than surround himself with people smarter than himself, as any good leadership training will tell you, he couldnt have picked someone LESS ready to lead. She scares the ever-living crap out of me, and I mean that whole-heartedly.

Finally, bring me someone that will protect my daughter's rights to make decisions for herself, protect the balance of power in the Supreme Court, and think long term, big picture. It's not the immediate gratification of popularity that americans will respond to best, but it's the willingness to fight the long, difficult fights that have begged to be addressed for decades. The promise of that beckons me, and I'm hoping against hope that he can deliver on a fraction of that.

[phoenix73]

*me getting off my soapbox*

hope you're all well and that the views I stated above are mine, solely, and are not meant to be in judgement of anyone elses. MHO, but everyone has the right to their strong belief. That's why we're here!

[* amanda]

Nice to see you phoenix!

That's right - thats why I started this thread - so we could feel free to express how we feel & at the same time I think we can do that because we're all good about not being judgmental of others. And, at least in my case, I'm always curious to know what all of you are thinking.

I like what you expressed, phoenix. And sjr, I'd read your post a few weeks ago and felt 100% in agreement with you as well. You also expressed how I feel.

I want to re-iterate my opinion that the United States' willingness, effort, and ability to *cooperate* with the rest of the world ("cooperate/cooperatively" being the key word here) over the next 4 years is absolutely essential in not only avoiding further tragedy and disaster but in simply making the world a better place. The U.S. is, in my opinion, no longer (if it ever was) in an appropriate position to play the world's "policemen"/"moral guardians." We need to be more attentive than ever to the needs of the international community as a whole at this point in time. We need to take the higher road when it comes to peace talks, compliance with all international law (no, we have NOT been complying with it in the past 8+ years or so), and more or less tolerance for all, even for those who are unlike ourselves. Americans cannot impose their values and beliefs on others, because what holds true to us may not be appropriate for others. Americans must instead respect and embrace the differences of others, and offer help but come to the aid of others only when specifically requested. Tolerance and cooperation are the highest "moral" values we should hold true at this point in time. We need to use these values to re-think and re-organize any international policy that we have already put in place. We are in a position to make this world a more productive, safer, and more comfortable place for future generations now. Let's not wait until it's too late (either this world becomes more of a disaster than it already is or we're no longer in a position where we can do so.)

We need a leader who has the intellect, demeanor, and perspective to have the patience, understanding, and ability to accomplish such goals.

I don't want to spend the next 8 years trying to explain to "my fellow" Canadians why "I" (they see and refer to me as "The American") voted into office someone who is unable to uphold not just the best interests of Americans, but rather the international community - human beings - as a whole in his mind when making decisions. Let's face it: in most of the world, Americans are seen as bloody war-mongerers/naive and intolerant Christian crusaders bent on destroying any culture other than our own. We need an ambassador (president) who will shatter this disastrous and tragic image of Americans.

I'll let you decide who is more capable of this.

[sjr0301]

Amanda and Phoenix:

It's great to hear from you.

Also, Richard, thanks for your comment on the main board.

I have been reading a great deal more commentary and listening to a great deal more political shows on tv than I normally do. A few thoughts really stick with me.

One commentator made a very perceptive comment - that is that the majority of American politicians have forgotten the distinction between the social contract and the commercial contract which underlie our democaracy. Obviously, the concept of free markets and freedom to contract are inherent in the captialist system. The Constitution protects American freedom to contract. This is the basis for much of the argument for the political divide on how we deal with the economy and to what extent the government can or should regulate commercial endeavors. However, even in the Constitution, commerical freedoms are subject to some restrictions. Congress is provided with the power to regulate and legislate with respect to interstate and foreign commerce, including the power to tax, both via domestic tax and foreign excise taxes. The states have the power to regulate commerce within their own borders. There are numerous Supreme Court cases (very difficult to read) that discuss the tension between the federal power to regulate commerce and state power to regulate commerce. But this is not the only substance of our democracy.

We also have the social contract. This is the concept that government is "by the people" and "for the people." The fundamental notion of the social contract, stated in the Preamble to the Constituion, is that a central purpose of the government is to "promote the general welfare." To that end, Congress has the authority to legislate and regulate, including to determine labor laws such as minimum wage and maximum hours, the right of workers to associate and to create unions, family leave and medical leave rights; and, obviously, such programs as social security and medicare, which promote the general welfare by reducing the likelihood that the elderly will be left homeless and impoverished once their ability to function in the marketplace is impaired by age and health. Many issues that divide the country now relate to the question of just how much should the government be spending proportionately on social contract issues as opposed to, for instance, national security.

It is unfortunate that many people seem to have forgotten that there can be no government of the people and by the people if the general welfare of the people is trampled by the power and influence of wealthy corporate and special interests.

Our entire political system is all about checks and balances. Inherent in the design of the Constitution is the principle that no one of the three branches of government - the executive (President), the legislative (Congress), and the Judiciary (courts) should have greater power than any other. This is to prevent tyranny, to protect the people, and to ensure that individual rights are not diminished.

What is wrong with Palin's and Cheney's concept of the Vice Presidency, and Bush's view of the primacy of the Presidency (the unitary executive), is that they allocate excessive power to the Executive Branch in violation of the Constitution.

The other thing that really bothers me is the Republican use of religion in the last ten years or so to stir up the worst biases of the electorate. Another bedrock principle in America is separation of Church and State. All citizens are supposed to have freedom to worship, and even freedom not to worship. The government is not supposed to adopt any religion or take actions that inhibit the free practice of religion. There should not even be a discussion as to what church, synagogue or mosque, or none, any of the candidates attend. I am a Jew and I believe strongly in the right of Israel to have secure borders and to be free of terrorism. However, I am offended by the attacks on Obama, suggesting that he is a Muslim, when he is a Christian, and that he favors Muslim terrorists because he had an acquaintance with a Palestinian professor at University of Chicago. Not all Palestinians are terrorists. Not all Muslims are terrorists. And rhetoric that exploits people's fears on that basis drives the country in a way that is against the very principle of separation of Church and State. It incites bigotry and hatred, and undermines the fabric of our society. Moreover, as I understand the Christian religion, which, like Judaism, is supposed to be about loving your neighbor as yourself, it is also anti-Christian.

There is nothing wrong, however, with having one's religious and ethical beliefs inform one's political views. In that spirit, the principles of charity, peacefulness, and the sacredness of life are deeply embedded in every major religion. It seems to me that social programs designed to assist the poor, the sick, the hungry, and to provide safety and medical treatment for our children are those that a practicing Christian, Jew or Muslim ought to support. It also seems to me that engaging in wars ought to be a last resort, when we have been attacked and are in continuing danger, and not used preemptively or as an excuse for an imperialistic expansion of power. A recent estimate stated that over 500,000 Iraqi citizens have died since the American invasion in 2003. They died even though Iraq never attacked America, had no ability to attack America, was not involved in 9/11, and had no weapons of mass destruction. That loss of life, and the loss of thousands of American soldiers in this unjustified war, also violates the same religious and ethical principles of Christians, Jews and Muslims. McCain has said he will not withdraw from Iraq, even though we should never have been there to begin with. This means that more lives, American and Iraqi, will be lost. And trillions of dollars that could be better spent on the health and welfare of our people would instead be spent to fund more death, and feed the pockets of mercenary private corporations contracted to the government to provide "services" in Iraq.

It is no accident that General Eisenhower's granddaughter endorsed Obama. Eisenhower was the architect of the Amerian victory against the Nazis in Europe and a fine Republican President. The truth is that Obama is closer ideologically and politically to Eisenhower than McCain and Palin and that is why Eisenhower's granddaughter endorsed Obama.

If the Republicans will ever return to their core principles, the principles of Lincoln and Eisenhower, I might consider voting for them again. But not this time.


Susan

[Richard]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts. I agree with Amanda that we should all feel free to express ourselves here. I do think that's the only think I agree with her on though...

Amanda, there was something in your post that made me realize just how fundamental our difference in view is. I see freedom as the most important moral value America has to offer the rest of the world. America is the most free country in the world. I don't think there is any other country where the people have so much power, and the government doesn't interfere with their citizen's life. I really think this is a very important ideal, and truly the highest ideal there is. I believe Americans shouldn't embrace other cultures / values, when, in my opinion, it is clear that there simply isn't a better way. Furthermore, I believe the US is right in not complying to all international laws. They are partly created by inferior governments, and in a democracy like the States, their own laws should be good enough.

Susan, thanks a lot for your post on the different laws / responsibilities of the different branches of government. I recognize Montesquieu's Trias Politica, which I think is incorporated in most Western governments (and I really think that gives the best basis for government available). Though I'm tempted to start a rant about islam vs. Christianity and Judaism (in Holland, our society is based on the so-called Jewish-Christian tradition, that's why I usually take them together), I'm not doing that here. I'll just say that I agree with you that State and Church should be separated, but that it is important to include the values found in religion (like pro-life).

Before ending this post, I'll comment on a recent poll in Holland. Apparently, 70% of Dutch people would vote Obama, 30% McCain. Besides the vote, there were other questions included as well. For instance, everyone of those Dutch people who would vote Obama also think he supports the legalization of gay marriage, wants to ban guns, put an end to the use of the death penalty and withdraw all American troops from the Middle East. On all these topics, the Dutch voters have a wrong idea about Obama. Funnily enough, Dutch people who would vote for McCain, knew what John McCain stands for. Just thought I'd share this. I was rather amused by it!

Richard

[Tonks]

Hey all,

It's great to hear everyone's perspective on the monumental election that we are going to have tomorrow! I agree and disagree with things that have been said, but as this is America, everyone has their right to their opinion and to be heard! I especially am intrigued by Richard's input as an outsider. He has absolutely no impact on our election, but take interest to it and looks at it from a non-biased point of view! Thanks for your input, Richard!

Ok, I'll start off as saying I am a die hard Republican, always have been....however I have always said that if the Democrats put a worthy candidate up, I would vote for them.....so I am an open minded Republican! (does that even go together, or is that an oxymoron?) And, I'd like to say that this is just like the last election where as it's going to be the better of the two evils, neither is ideal. I actually voted a few weeks ago because I needed to change my address and if I did that before voting I wouldn't have been able to vote AT ALL! I did vote for McCain and praying he wins, however, I know God will pick who is best for us and whoever it ends up being I hope he does a good job.

I'll start with Obama...I have not liked Obama from day one and actually hoped that Hillary would win the Democratic ticket. I feel her experience as the wife of a former President, and her experience on the New York Senate would have been a much better ticket than Obama and if she ran against McCain I would admit to actually voting for Hillary. I am from Illinois, everyone knows that, but I am ashamed that Obama claims Chicago as his "hometown". Obama only moved here because he knew Chicago and Illinois itself is highly Democratic and would be a better chance of getting his foot in the door to Senate. He has not done a thing for Illinois and personally I don't trust him. He's changed his opinions so many times it's hard to keep track. Another thing that has me worried is his true heritage/citizinship. It is not known for certain that he is truly an American (he was adopted by a Kenyan I guess and in Kenya you cannot have dual citizinship) and he has not shown respect to our nation until just recently (ie not holding his hand over his heart for the Pledge of Allegiance, not wearing a flag pin, and his wife basically she has no respect for America or something of that nature). Another thing that bothers me, and this only came out recently, is that supposedly he had no idea that his Aunt (who was supposedly his mentor) was here illegally and on OUR wellfare system! I'm sorry, but how could you not know? Also, what is she doing on OUR welfare?! (I do not support having the welfare system at all, but that's a WHOLE other issue!) Anyways....I also oppose Obama/Biden because I don't believe in abortion.

Biden, can't stand him plain and simple.....he gives me the heebee jeebee's and I think he's in love with himself.

I think the biggest issue, for me anyway (besides energy) is the war. Having several family members in the military I for one don't want them there! However, I think it is a foolish idea to just "pull out" and I think this is where McCain is a better candidate, his military experience. I don't like McCain's "gung-ho" attitude, but I do believe any decision he makes regarding the war would be informative and well thought out. Someone said it best (I think they were quoting Palin) that victory is on the horizon, we just need patience....not forfeiture.

As for McCain, I'm not a huge Bailout plan fan. I think that those companies really could have avoided such a debt if they wouldn't have given outrageous loans to those who couldn't afford it. Americans as a whole need to learn again how to live within their means. People so many times have just slapped things on credit cards because they consider that money they can count as part of their income. I'm guilty of buying things with a credit card that I clearly couldnt' afford, but I'm learning from my mistakes and I'm working hard to pay that off.

As for Palin, I agree that it was a low stunt to pull her into the campaign so late in the game. However, I agree with Paulis and I like her. She is a spitfire and I think Washington needs that. She is a smart woman and has taken some harsh criticism as a grain of salt.

Wow, I really need to head out so I can study for my CT Registry....

Just some final thoughts as everyone goes out to the polls tomorrow, just remember that whoever we pick as our next President Elect, we didn't get into this economic crisis overnight, so the solution will not happen overnight to fix.

[Richard]

Thanks for your post Cali. I liked reading your thoughts, and agree with you! Although, I'm not sure if I'm so objective here...

So, it's 1-1 now (1 early vote for McCain, 1 for Obama). In less than 48 hours we will probably know who your new president will be, and y'all know who I'm rooting for! So, good luck voting everyone!!!!!

Go McCain Palin!

[blackngold]

Where to start. I am fairly ambivalent about the election. I am not particularly enamored of either candidate. I am most looking for someone that will be fiscally responsible which I don't think is possible for our government. I look at a ten trillion dollar debt and wonder how much longer can America keep doing this. For all the reasons SJR so coherently stated I agree with her that the US should never have attacked Iraq. However, like Tonks, I do not believe that we can just pick up and leave. I find it morally reprehensible to have gone in and totally disrupted the way of life for Iraqis and then say "oh, you know what we're kind of tired of this and by the way it's costing us a boatload of money so why don't you guys handle it." We are responsible for making sure some type of self sustaining government is set up that ensures those people of freedom and peace.

[blackngold]

Obama is a natural born US citizen despite what some people would have you believe.

[blackngold]

Whenever people talk about welfare it is always in reference to giving up their hard earned money for "those people" who sit on their collective asses doing nothing. I am sympathetic to this point of view however, I will relate welfare as it relates to my family.

My wife's father died when he was she was 5 years old. She had two older sisters that were 9 and 7. The oldest had Down's Syndrome. Her mother was a nurse at a nursing home. Until they were eighteen, my Mother in Law received government support for each child and money for the support of Phyllis (the oldest) for the rest of her life. With this support they lived a comfortable life in a two bedroom house circa 1940. Living a not very extravagant life, she has saved enough to afford maybe one year in a nursing home when the time comes.

Phyllis was fairly high functioning. For a while she held a job in town for which she had to take a bus into the downtown area and get home again each night. They came to live with us 6 years ago. Two years ago, Phyllis' health started to deteriorate. From being a fairly self sufficient person with a vocabulary where she could make herself understood she shrank to monosyllables and finally muteness. The week (we didn't know it at the time) before a spot opened up at the nursing home for her, she started screaming unconsolably through the night. The nursing home where she stayed was completely funded by the government.

I don't begrudge one penny of the money that went to support my wife's family before I met her and I don't regret for a single instant taking the funds to give Phyllis the care she needed. We could never have afforded it.

[Tonks]

b&g-i'm sorry to hear of your families struggle and i'm so glad that they were able to get support! it's those types of stories that make me happy to give a little of my paycheck. i just feel that welfare has totally been taken advantage of. many people that i have worked with in the past blatantly would leave things out of their applications for food stamps, kid care connection, wicc, etc.....it's them that i am totally disgusted gets my money. i think the government needs to buckle down and re-evaluate who is getting money for free.

[* amanda]

Funnily enough, I agree with everyone here for the *most part* except for Richard. Richard, Richard. No comment. I still do really like you though. Just have to ignore your political views.

Cali, I agree that Obama makes me incredibly nervous for his lack of experience and the multitude of promises he made people - powerful people - that I wonder how he will keep. I hope that whoever is elected will be fiscally responsible for our country. I almost voted for McCain based on his experience and networks in Washington, and because he has been more involved in the U.S. politics than Obama has. Obama strikes me as a little cocky and very inexperienced. But... I do believe in his power as an intellectual, someone who will hopefully put the best interests of the most Americans in front of other interests, someone who will surround himself with qualified, competent, intelligent individuals, and foremost - the most important issue in my book - value our responsible cooperation with the international community.

I could be wrong.

As an extra bonus, Obama has actually swallowed up a lot of advisers from Camp Hillary. (Hey, at least he knew who was qualified for the job and was smart enough to surround himself with able individuals.)

I am still disappointed in Hill's loss. She would have, by far, made the best president, and put McCain and Obama to shame. Sad that the media really manipulated Americans into voting for Obama... but that's another discussion.

Cali, like you I struggle with the question of welfare, which certainly is an interesting position to be in when I'm paying 30% of my salary to a welfare society with mandatory, universal socialized healthcare here in Canada. I've never been opposed to welfare being used to help people, especially in cases like B&G described, but on the other hand, like you I find a lot of people take advantage of the system and that's where I feel my money is being wasted. I see way too many people taking advantage of the system around here, and I don't trust in the ability for the system to work for me one day if I need it, because who knows how it will be sustained (whether it will be + at what cost + at what extent will quality be compromised, etc.). But again, that's for another discussion. On the other hand, when my dad lost his job, if my mom didn't have her job as a teacher they would have lost their health insurance altogether, and where would that have left them? They've even had some health issues come up this year. I don't know what kind of state they'd be in. That's when I really start to see the advantages of a healthcare (and, more generally, welfare) system and I see that our system doesn't necessarily even go far enough.

Sorry for the randomness, I'm basically posting my individual thoughts to various topics brought up here recently, as I follow the results as they start to trickle in.

Sometimes, I feel like the more I feel I know, and the more I experience, the less I know what I believe in... my advice is to experience as many things as possible, you might not know more but you'll at least gain some new perspectives on things.